Content To Grow - Copywriter Kelly Gilmour-Grassam

Having begun freelancing whilst still at university, Kelly realised if she was going to be doing this for the next 40 years then she needed a plan. She needed to build a business that would increase her income beyond her own billable hours and that would keep her enjoying it.

Crowned young IPSE Freelancer Of The Year 2015, Kelly shares great freelance tips and insight as she outsourced, took on an employee, joined trade bodies and more so that her company 'Making You Content' was making her content as well.

More from Kelly

Kelly on Twitter

Kelly's company site

Useful Links

Network Freelance




Who the hell is Steve Folland?

Steve's a freelancer helping businesses use and make video & audio content in much better ways. Find out more at, track him down on Twitter @sfolland or lay a trail of cake and he'll eventually catch you up.


Steve Folland :        Hey I'm Steve Folland, thanks for listening. This episode is supported by the Podcast Host - get your own podcast up and running with their help, courses, support groups and more. Check out the Podcast Host via Right now though let's find out what it's like being freelance for copywriter Kelly Gilmour-Grassam.  

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Hey! Steve, how are you?

Steve Folland :    03:07    I'm well, thank you for joining us for this. How about we get started hearing about how you got started being freelance.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah absolutely. So I got into freelancing when I was at university. I had two waitressing jobs which I was doing on evenings and weekends and I was trying to save up for travelling around South America when I graduated.  So I thought how could I make a bit more income and use my skills, and so I saw a few opportunities for freelance writing on the web. And at the time I managed to bag an opportunity writing for EasyJet and cost holidays which I'm sure now they wouldn't really hire student writers but the timing was fantastic and I'd do little bits sort of in the holidays you know and in between studies and it went from there. I carried on around South America when I graduated and returning in 2014 with no job and no money I thought well why don't I give it a go full-time!

Steve Folland :    04:10    So how did you find those jobs? Was that like through online marketplaces type thing. Or ...

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah I was on literally every student job website going and it just so happened that it cropped up you know writing - at the time I think it was writing something about family holidays in Majorca and things like that. So yeah I was quite lucky in getting those jobs at the time but then when I kind of switched on to the idea that those jobs are out there, I went on platforms like Upwork, PeopleperHour until I no longer needed to really rely on them to find my client.

Steve Folland :    04:48    What did you make of that? I mean it obviously worked for you but how did you make those sites like Upwork and PeopleperHour work for you?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        I just found that you know you have to do really good job at first to get a bit of a foot in the door because once you've got like a five star rating, you start attracting better clients, higher pay and it's kind of a snowball effect with those sites, because at first it is really hard. You know you're competing against other people for an opening but once you've got a bit of a reputation behind you it's like eBay and you've become a trusted seller. And so yeah eventually, people start tuning in and you can increase your rate and you can be a bit more choosy about what jobs you pick and from there you can really establish yourself.

Steve Folland :    05:35    And would those be jobs where you pitch for them? Or would it be where people might find you and approach you?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        It was a bit of both really, especially in the early stages I found when you know when I was at university and I was trying to get jobs to do and I didn't have a portfolio behind me or anything, it was a lot of applying for jobs but that was only really for the first few months and then what you find is you know people seek you out because they're looking for people they can rely on within their price range and that they you know, have got a portfolio that they can use. So it's kind of a seesaw effect in that at first you know you're doing a lot of the work and it's a bit of an uphill struggle, but then after that like for example nowadays, I don't ever apply for jobs they just come to me.

Steve Folland :        Yes. At one point the balance kind of tips in your favour.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah it's definitely a tipping point and it is just that reputation. Once people can see you know, they look a portfolio and see your work for themselves, especially as a writer, and they see reviews or they get good feedback from friends that will refer you, then you don't need to prove yourself because you know people coming to you as an expert rather than when I started out as a student looking for a bit of extra money on the side.

Steve Folland :    06:54    Now here's the thing. You said that it was like six years ago when you were at uni but then you went travelling. What year was that?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        That was 2013.

Steve Folland :    07:06    And you came back, and you know other than a lovely tan you found you didn't have any work, so you could have just kept on doing what you were doing but it's obviously grown from there because you don't just trade as Kelly anymore right?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah exactly. I mean so when I came back in March 2014, my parents live on a farm in Yorkshire in the middle of nowhere. It is blissful - they've got donkeys, dogs, cats everything, but there aren't many jobs unless you want to be a farmer. So I kind of just thought, 'well I'll do this for a bit, see how I get on and use it as a platform to get a job,' and then within a couple of months when I was full time and I was snowed under with work, I thought ,'well actually I've already got a job, so how am I going to make this work long-term?' Because even though at the time I was on a  really good wage you know compared to my friends and to say that I'd only just come back from travelling and I was very aware of the fact that my friends were in you know grad jobs and careers where they were going to progress quite quickly and that I would probably get left behind. You know if your hours are full, all you can do is raise your price which you can only do to a certain extent. So that's where the idea of creating an agency or a business would you know have scope to grow came from and it was just really you know, I'm  - well at the time - I was 20, 21,  if I'm going to be doing this for the next 40 years how am I going to make my income grow appropriately and make it something that I want to do forever.

Steve Folland :        Man, I mean that's one hell of a vision to have isn't it because it can be so tempting especially when you're 21 to live for the moment because it feels like a long way away.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah exactly.  It was quite a quick shift to be honest when going from travelling around the world, well travelling around South America with just a rucksack to actually having loads of clients responsibilities and having to grow up actually quite quickly. Because it is a very different lifestyle within the space of six months that I'd adopted and I think that's where perhaps my struggles in business had been learning the business side of things because I'm very comfortable as a writer but I very quickly had to wise up to things like tax returns and you know bookkeeping. Mainly, I struggle with the account side of things personally but, you know knowing how to deal with difficult situations and just things that when you're a passionate write like anybody that's a freelancer they're passionate about what they do but they might not be born with the natural business instinct so you do have to learn quite fast.

Steve Folland :    09:49    So how did you take that step into turning into a company once you decided to? And I don't mean literally filling in the forms, like growing it I guess and dealing with it.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yes so I kind of I kept it just myself working for 2014. And then over Christmas, I kind of thought I'm so busy and I kind of need to be able to -  I don't want my turnaround times to be affected and I need to keep on servicing my clients and delivering a good job. So I thought okay so after Christmas, I'm going to try and see about hiring freelancer. So then I basically gave the trial piece to a couple of freelancers to see if we were a good fit in terms of our writing styles, found someone that I worked really well with and started giving out work to her. So, you know I'd have my workload for the week, I'd see that maybe I had a bit too much on and so I'd give a brief and give like, a three day turnaround and then I'd edit the work and send off. So that quickly made a model that I was able to scale quite quickly.  So by October, I had eight freelancers and that's where it really transformed from being just me being a freelancer to working as an agency.

Steve Folland :    11:07    Wow, and where did you find those freelancers? Did you go back to the job boards but this time as a client?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        No, to be honest. Oh actually I did for one of them, I put it on Upwork and that had a really good response. But things just like Twitter which is fantastic. You know if you put in the right hashtags, people will respond. Everybody's always searching Twitter for job opportunities and openings so I found that that worked really well. But I mean there has been a real rise of freelance job platforms so I mean I've just hired my first employee but if I was to go down the route again of getting freelancers which I intend to, would be to use things things like Network Freelance, where they are very pro everybody getting a fair pay and fair treatment and I'm quite having been a freelancer myself I think that's really important to have a model that is fair when you have freelancers.

Steve Folland :    11:58    So how did you manage suddenly having eight freelancers working for you like both logistically, and I guess mentally and yeah it's part of that logistics the pricing of it to make sure that you've suddenly factored (inaudible 12:13)

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah, I mean it is tricky because you know it's a lot more to think about than like you say when you're just managing yourself and when when it's just you. You can just say well I only need to pay myself x amount. So it kind of becomes irrelevant what you are charging them but then when you're paying another freelancer to do something obviously you have to be more aware of cost so you know I did have to increase my prices because I was charging ... even as a freelancer, a lot of clients said that I was charging too low which I think is quite a common thing to do being self-employed is to undervalue what you're doing. But I suppose it's just getting feedback and learning from what works and what doesn't. Like I found that having eight freelancers didn't actually work for me because I was spending more time editing than if I'd have just done all the work myself. So now what I've done is I've rethought the model, taking on my employee with the idea that he'll look after the freelancers when we grow again. So I think it is a lot of trial and error of finding out what works, you know. I suppose it's taking the time to reflect and actually see what's happening because it's very easy to get bogged down in just coping and getting through the to-do list and get to the end of the week meeting deadlines.  But I think it you've got to like, even if it's once a month or you know once a fortnight, however often it is to think - okay, what's been happening and look at the numbers, look at the deadlines, look at the turnaround times and see how you are delivering.

Steve Folland :    12:16    I'm intrigued. Did your clients say that you were too low price-wise?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah a couple of my clients said that actually. You know when they're telling you that it's probably, well it's a good sign if anything, I'd rather somebody say that you're under-priced than overpriced. But I do think especially with a skill like you know with writing or anything design, illustration, whatever it is you probably think your skills are quite normal because you're good at it and that's why you're doing it. But for other people like oh my gosh I can't believe how well you write. Like you do magic with words and I'm like really? Because I just sit down it just comes. Do you know what I mean? I think that's when you've really got to shift your perspective as a freelancer or as anyone business is. It's not about what you value your time, it's what your client values what you're doing. So it might take you half an hour to do something but if that saves somebody three hours writing a blog, that's worth a lot to them.

Steve Folland :        So you've .. you just said that you've brought on an employee. So I mean that's quite a thing to do.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah it is, I mean I love being a freelancer and I love the fact that it's so flexible and you know even when I was using freelancers for my business, it was still very flexible. So there wasn't much risk involved really. So it was very daunting making the shift from being a one woman band to having somebody on the payroll and having to go limited and all of the kind of responsibilities that come with that. But I do think, as a young freelancer, I think you need to have a bit of a growth plan there. Because a lot of freelancers are, not wanting to generalise here, but a lot of freelancers that I meet, they've already been through the career path and so they are choosing to be freelancers either because they've got children or because they want a bit more of a lifestyle and they want that flexibility. Whereas for me coming at it from the other angle, just starting out in my career, I didn't really want to plateau or lose that momentum. So that's kind of why I took the leap and so far, I mean Josh is great he's my new employee, we just reached the end of our probation period, so it's been three months which has flown by and it's going really well I think. I think it was the natural step for me to take.

Steve Folland :    16:08    And how did you find Josh and are you working remotely?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        No,I've now got an office in the centre of Manchester which is great. It's obviously different from working from home because I have to now come in and I'm a boss. If something goes wrong it's all on my head and we're in a workspace with other people so it's a massive cultural shift. Both in terms of the way working now with just two of us you know we have to communicate, I have to delegate to him, just in terms of the lifestyle because before I could get up on a morning and just work in my pyjamas and now I have to look presentable because I'm in an office with other people but, it is really healthy working with Josh because it is quite easy to get stuck in a way of thinking and having somebody else there, he really challenges what I'm doing and vice versa. So I feel a lot more creative now that he's around which is great because you know it's so important in the creative industries to keep  those ideas going around and to stay fresh.

Steve Folland :    17:10    And so, what is that like a co-working space is it that you're in?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        It's a shared workspace so we have our own dedicated desks which is great but I mean I looked at co-working spaces when I was searching for offices and it's very hard to find a balance. They're very personal co-working spaces. Some of them are quite youth hostel-ly. Some are very like professional and you know quite - how do I put it - quite slick and smart. Whereas others are quite you know the entrepreneurial spark side of things; very dynamic, very sort of accelerator style. So I think you've got to find one that works for you and I couldn't really find one that was a good fit.

Steve Folland :    17:13    So what have you ended up with?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Luckily, I joined a networking group recently and found a couple of people in that they had a few desks in their office, and so I have a dedicated desk which works well because I'm in most days so I don't want to have to fight the German towel situation. You know trying to get down to the deckchairs early so that you can get a space, you know what I mean? It's nice to just have my desktop there and I've got all of my things, I've got my own drawers and that's quite nice because it feels like we're more established if you get what I mean?

Steve Folland :    18:28    Yeah, and what's your client relationships like? Are they all remote or do you meet them face-to-face?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Most of them are remote, just from the way that I initially built the business, you know, being a freelancer you're working from home so it's not like you can invite them to your office.  What I found now is that we've got a meeting space so I can invite clients here and that's really nice because you get to learn a lot more about them. Also in being in the city centre, I can go out for meetings and coffees and especially having Josh on board, I've got more time to do that. So it is changing from being very much an online, you know maybe you talk on the phone, but it's mainly via e-mail, to being more meeting clients either through networking or further to actually meeting them and talking about what they want. So I am finding that it's becoming more of a Manchester-based business than it was before which was perhaps it was quite virtual. When I was a freelancer, I mean I've got a client in Ecuador, I've got a client in Singapore, you can work remotely I do think there are benefits to having a close relationship with a client because they treat you more as a peer rather than just a blank face that supplies them with content once a week.

Steve Folland :    19:39    Yeah - how do you go about marketing? So what's your company called?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:         It's Making you Content.

Steve Folland :    19:47     Nice, because I don't think we had mentioned that yet. So how do you go about marketing your company?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        I find networking is very effective because often when you're speaking to people and you're out and about they'll say you know I really struggle to have the time to do that. And then you get into a conversation and you know in any business you find that you convert more when you are actually able to stand face to face and talk to someone about something. I also find blogging's really effective obviously I've got to practice what I preach since that's kind of our bread and butter. I do find that somebody might read a blog and then they'll end up visiting our website, if you're looking analytically you can see how they've landed on your site and I do think producing content on a regular basis is important otherwise I wouldn't do it. But yeah, I think blogging, networking, social media, LinkedIn is a fantastic tool and I think if you use it wisely and actually if someone connects with you, for example sending them a message saying, 'Oh I see that you're from Manchester, let me know if you'd like to have a coffee,' and things that just it's just engaging people and I think it's so easy to see marketing as a one way conversation but it really isn't you've got to be willing to actually interact and listen to what other people are saying.

Steve Folland :    21:02    Nice. Do you have to be quite strict with a content creation schedule of your own?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah I think that's one thing that when I was just by myself I found really difficult because obviously the client comes first. So I found that my content got side-lined a lot and now I've got more of a strategy for you know doing a monthly newsletter. We do a sort of roundup on the blog once a month and then we do like try and do either once a week or once a fortnight do an informative blog. So like the last one was about generating ideas for blog posts. I think the one before was about how your brand is, if design is like the wardrobe of your brand, then content's like the voice and the personality. Things that get people thinking about not just copywriting and content but also marketing and branding as a whole.

Steve Folland :    22:02    So on your website, you call yourself our 'award winning copywriting agency'. How important has entering awards been for you?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        I think it's not so much you know generating direct leads, I think it's more the credibility that comes with it. I think when people do land on your website or they might have an email with you and you've got that in your signature in the bottom saying - you know, listing your awards, I think it just gives you that credibility and it shows that you are not just ... you've got something to substantiate what you're saying that you can do. It is important to apply for these things because they do give you exposure and even if you don't necessarily get a contact out of it straight away or prospect, people will have heard of you before.

Steve Folland :    22:44    And it also says on your site 'As featured on BBC Radio 4, BBC Radio 5 Live.' So what's that?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah, I was invited to speak on BBC Radio 4 on the show that they were doing about being self-employed and the changing dynamics of self employment and specifically for young people. So that was quite, at the time I was living in a tiny one bed flat on the third floor of this apartment and I had like the two shows producers come with all their gear get and having to lug it up to the top floor and we were sat - I had like a little love seat and then a desk chair and there were three of us just sat huddled around this coffee table trying to do an interview. That was quite surreal. I think you know putting yourself out there and I found that really nerve-racking being on the radio the first time but gradually you get more used to it and I suppose it's just trying to ... I think as Brits we find it quite awkward talking about what we're doing and putting ourselves out there. I think you've got to see as your business not just you as a person, you've got to think you know my business needs this exposure and you kind of need to get over any fears you have about doing that.

Steve Folland :        And I suppose then producers talk and it then leads on to other things.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:         Yeah exactly, your name's sort of on the list there and I mean I do a lot with IPSE and the FSB, so I get a lot of opportunities through them as well.

Steve Folland :    24:10    Ah right, so it's useful being part of like trade organisations I guess. Is that the word you'd use? Yeah probably.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah I definitely think so because people think with trade organisations you know they're just joining it for things like care support or the insurance or the pension schemes, but actually it's the whole package if you actually engage with the people that are running it, like your regional chairman or you know the PR people, there's a lot that they can do for you if you just show a willingness to get involved and kind of pitch in.

Steve Folland :    24:18    Should say for people that FSE is Federation of Small Enterprises is it?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah the FSB - it's Federation of Small Businesses. So they kind of do what IPSE do except IPSE seems more tailored towards social entrepreneurs whereas Federation of Small Businesses it's more like 1-10 employees perhaps.

Steve Folland :    25:01    They're everywhere all over the UK and no doubt wherever in the world you are you'll have something similar to get stuck into. IPSE is the association of Independent Professionals and the Self-Employed here in the UK. So links on the show notes at for this episode. Right, back to either Kelly and earlier you said that dealing with the financial side of business wasn't your strong point. So how have you overcome that?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Outsourced. I think that it's really important outsource if you're not good at something or even if it's not that you can't do it but it takes you a long time. I think it's, well you know being a freelancer you'll know as well, it is more cost effective to outsource and support other freelancers and businesses in the industry. I've got a really good relationship with my accountant. He's more than happy for me to ring him up and ask him what's this or can you or can you help me with that. And I think rather than you can feel quite alone as an entrepreneur or freelancer, I think it's important to realise that there are people out there that can help you and all you have to do is ask.

Steve Folland :    26:53    Have you had much help with like a business mentor? It seems like you've made some great choices, if you haven't been bouncing them off of other people's heads.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        No I haven't up to now, but actually funnily enough I'm just starting with a business mentor. Well he's a business coach, I know there's lots of different terms for them isn't there, and it's kind of I found the first stages of the business quite easily because it happens so naturally. What I want to do now is look at how will I do next and how to kind of streamline what I'm doing. Because even though I'm an agency I think I've still got a way to go before I fully present the business in that way like you know I very much, everything rests on my head. So in that respect, as a business you have limited liability, I have got Joshua to rely on but I think it's trying to streamline that model and make it so that I'm more dispensable which I think when you're running a business you can't have one person is the be all and end all.

Steve Folland :        Yeah which is freelance as we are, but yeah it's that being able if you were removed from it would still keep going.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Exactly, yeah and that's what I think in terms of you know I mean touchwood I'm fit and healthy and can't see anything going wrong in the foreseeable future. But if something did happen or even if just I went away on holiday you know, the business doesn't grind to a halt. And I think that's kind of the stage that I want to push on to next and really sort of reinforce the business if you like.

Steve Folland :    28:24    So as you do that, do you see that you're going to be writing less and less and it's more about bringing clients on board and managing them. Is that how it feels?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah, kind of, at the moment if I do that, it's on top of all of my workload. So like at the moment I'm working sort of 12 hour days just to get everything done because I'm trying to bring in business. But at the same time I need to do the work. So to an extent yes, but because I do love writing and that's something I'm really passionate about, I want to be able to carry that on. But I think it's more a case of doing quality over quantity which at the moment I'm working a lot of hours and that's what's not sustainable.

Steve Folland :    29:03    And when it comes to, because you just mentioned a holiday, is that doable?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Well last year for example, I took a two week holiday and it was fantastic. I gave my clients like a couple of months' notice so that worked really well. Nobody was left in the lurch, but the two weeks I was away the business stopped. What I'm hoping is when I go on holiday this year in September, which is only for a week to be fair I'll be able to at least leave it ticking over to a certain extent so that you know if an enquiry comes in or if there's a deadline or you know some work needs to be done, it's not just left until I come back to a week's worth of work to catch up.

Steve Folland :    29:45    How about like the services that you offer - has that changed over time?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        It has, but not. I mean for example, what I do now with a lot of my clients is when they, for example, if they want to do blogging, I come up with a list of titles and help with strategy planning but I don't offer consulting as a service for example because I don't see it as beneficial to either me or the client to charge for that because it benefits me if I can have a list of signed off titles that I've created that I can just work through on a weekly or fortnightly basis. So in terms of a service offering, it has you know it has increased. But I'm still offering the same you know like, product descriptions, blogs, newsletters, things like that but I think I'm just offering more of a refined end to end service. Because you've got to see how your services are solving problems and what I've always found is that my clients don't have the time or the ideas. So by adding value on being able to increase my prices and being able to build better relationships and ultimately get more work out of my clients.

Steve Folland :    30:56    Yeah, yeah nice. Now I always do this thing where I ask for three facts about yourself - make two true, one a lie and then let me figure out the lie. So what do you have for me Kelly?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Okay, so number one - I once played the drums with Alt-J. Wow. Number two, I've written a bestselling novel under a pseudonym. And number three, before I was a writer I was a waitress in Turkey.

Steve Folland :    31:22    Can I ask what the name of the novel is?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Adventures in South America.

Steve Folland :    31:29    Am I allowed to ask the pseudonym or does that just blow it all away?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah it is called Thaka Masala.

Steve Folland :    31:37    OK, and you came up with that did you?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        You know I basically I just saw the name on a street sign, and I just thought, well that will do. That will have to do because I can't think of a name. You know when you look. You can never come up with a great name, that's one thing I think the novelists find really hard to do - is come up with names so I just got it off the side of the street it was Thaka Masala.

Steve Folland :    32:01    Wow. So you played the drums of Alt-J. How did that happen?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Well, just a disclaimer here. They weren't at the time Alt-J. So basically when I was at school there was a teacher in my class called Mr. Green and his son was called Tom Green who is the drummer in Alt-J. There was a raffle when I was at school, my mum, I was desperate to play the drums I was a real tomboy at the time and so she put a bid in this auction or raffle thing and I won a drum lesson. And it was just an hour like playing the drums with this guy. I think he was a teenager at the time. And anyway I found out from my stepdad, he's a barber recently that he's the drummer in Alt-J. And I just put two and two together and was like it's so cool because obviously at time I would never have known that he would be come famous.

Steve Folland :    32:58    Oh wow man that's good. Okay, you did say you did waitress some point over in Turkey did you. Okay, I'm going to say you've not published a novel yet.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Yeah, no that even with the pseudonym that was just so bad. I would've been shocked if you went for that one.

Steve Folland :        It was kind of believable and yet because the other two were so believable, I had to go for that one. Oh what a shame you need to write that book and use that name.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        It is on my list. My long term to do list is to write a novel. At the moment I think I've probably got enough on my plate.

Steve Folland :        Okay, well when you write the novel even if you use your real name as the author, that character needs to appear - Masala needs to appear in the novel.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Definitely I will bear that in mind. Maybe I could dedicate the book to Thaka Masala.

Steve Folland :        Yes, its gotta be in there somewhere! I will be checking up even if it's in 20 years' time.

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        I hope you do! I'd be disappointed if I don't get an email in 20 years' time.

Steve Folland :    34:05    Okay now if you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance what would it be?

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:        Not to worry so much. I'm a massive worrywart and I think that's one of the things I could have saved myself a lot of stress over the years. Things that have worked out fine in the end but I've fretted and not slept about them and so I think you've got to sort of lose those sensitivities and you know just life goes on even if something does go wrong in business, life does go on.

Steve Folland :        Nice, Kelly thank you so much. There are links to everything that Kelly is up to at You can find key takeaway points from this session and links to Kelly on Twitter and her company and all that kind of stuff as well. We'll update it whichever year that novel is published, we'll update it with a link to that on Amazon no problems. So go take a look, listen to other guests as well don't forget subscribe on iTunes and if you've enjoyed this, leave a review, tell people about it. Make sure they listen to it as well and spread the love. Kelly thanks so much and all the best being freelance!

Kelly Gilmour-Grassam:         Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me in.