Reach Out, Follow Up - Designer Émilie Chen
About this podcast episode…
INDEPENDENT DESIGNER ÉMILIE CHEN
French creative Émilie Chen had what she calls her dream job: senior designer at The National Theatre in London, working on posters she'd dreamed about since university. Years later though, it had turned sour in the studio, her mental health took a hit, and she gave herself 8 months to start saving money and figure out her next Act.
What got her there wasn't a clever strategy. It was people. Co-founding the London chapter of Ladies, Wine & Design gave her the confidence to start asking the freelancers she was meeting, how they'd done it. Someone she cold emailed, handed her a contact sheet of art directors across publishing. And the recipe, she says, never changed: reach out, follow up, and keep doing it even when nothing happens for months.
This episode of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland covers:
Co-founding the London chapter of Ladies, Wine & Design - starting with eight women in a theatre lobby - and how it built the confidence to ask near-strangers for advice, and to end up on speaking on stages (that got bigger and bigger over time)
Pushing back on a client who wanted her to create pitch work for free - and how that one conversation led to every freelancer being offered a fee from then on
Building a niche almost entirely from her old National Theatre colleagues, who took her name with them to new venues
Waiting after a talk for the room to empty, then walking up to introduce herself
Mailing a physical pack of postcards to The Guardian's creative directors and the years-later payoff
Surviving lockdown eleven months into freelancing, when her entire theatre client base vanished overnight, and the online directories that kept her busy until theatres reopened
The WhatsApp group of independent theatre poster designers who share contract terms, rates, and overflow work
Why the hardest part of freelancing isn't finding clients - it's learning to be a good boss to yourself
This episode is available to watch in video here on the site, on Apple Podcasts, YouTube and Spotify.
The generosity of others shines through in this conversation. And how Émilie herself is passing that kindness on. You can hear how important having a community around her has been for Émilie - you can have that kind of thing too - if you’re freelancing solo, come join us in the Being Freelance Community. You’re not alone being freelance.
Read a full transcript & get Links in the tabs.
More from Émilie Chen
Émilie’s website
Émilie on LinkedIn
More from Steve Folland
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and Independent Art Director & Designer
Émilie Chen:
Hi, I'm Émilie Chen. I'm a independent graphic designer and art director from France, based in London. [upbeat music] They basically sent me an A4 both-sided sheet with everyone's email address and names.
Steve Folland:
[gasps] That's like finding the Holy Grail or something.
Émilie Chen:
[laughs] People are unbelievably generous with their advice, with their time, if you just dare to put yourself out there, to knock at the door, to say hi.
Émilie Chen:
[laughs] The recipe is always the same. It's always the answer. Reach out to people. Follow up.
Steve Folland:
Yes. How are you? Welcome to another one. I'm Steve Folland. I'm a freelance video and podcast editor. Been making Being Freelance now for over 11 years. Please do check out all of the other episodes and come find everything that we're up to with the community, the course, the newsletter as well. Have you signed up for that? Beingfreelance.com. Today, though, we are off to... Well, actually London, but it sounds like we're off to France because Émilie is originally from France. To speak to independent art director and designer, and that is Émilie Chen. Hey, Émilie!
Émilie Chen:
Hi, Steve. Thanks for having me.
Steve Folland:
Thanks for doing this. As ever, how about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?
Émilie Chen:
It's a journey that has had several chapters. To give you a bit of context maybe, so I studied graphic design in France. Graduated during the recession, so it was really tough to find a job. I wanted to have an experience in London, so I did internship both in France and in London. Went back and forth a bit. It took a while for me to find a job. Eventually found one as a creative artworker in Paris, and then I quit after nine months, moved to London, and it was another nine months before I started my first proper role in London.
Émilie Chen:
In the interval, I did tiny bit of freelance, but it was really because I couldn't find anything else, and I really didn't think that was the way for me. Then, yeah, fast-forward a few years, I worked for a while at Pentland Brands and The National Theatre, and in parallel, I did tiny bit of freelance, but again, it was more friends coming to me asking if I could help with some designs things and me saying yes, rather than any intentional... yeah, thing on my part to be a freelancer, pursue freelancing.
Émilie Chen:
And then, I guess a few things happened. So by this time, six, seven years into my career, working as a senior designer at The National Theatre, which was my dream role, I should say. My dream when I was at uni was to do theatre poster and book covers, so it was like I was pinching myself that it was my job. [laughs]
Steve Folland:
[laughs]
Émilie Chen:
And for a while it was really good, and then things started turning sour in the studio at The National Theatre, in house at The National Theatre. I don't really want to get into the details of this, but yeah, basically, it got to a place where my mental health was struggling. I had lost my spark, even though the work was still interesting. And also, I guess, yeah, I had been in that role for three and a half years, and I didn't really want to progress within that team. So I kind of got to a place where I had to ask myself, "What's next?" And that was a bit scary because obviously, where do you go after a dream job?
Steve Folland:
Yeah.
Émilie Chen:
And also, I had no idea how to go around freelancing if I was going to do freelance. But I basically decided at Christmas I was giving myself until the summer to, yeah, get things in order, save money, and figure out my next steps.
Émilie Chen:
And in parallel to The National Theatre, I guess a couple of things happened in parallel. One of them is I started the design community, Ladies Wine & Design. For those who don't know, was started in New York by a kind of rockstar graphic designer, Jessica Walsh, who noted that there were very few senior women that she knew in this industry and that the ones that she did know were more competitive rather than supportive. So she wanted to change that. So she came up with the idea to have these little informal salon nights once per month in New York, inviting basically the first eight women that responded to the call-out she put out to meet up for coffee, or wine, more specifically. [laughs]
Steve Folland:
[laughs]
Émilie Chen:
And yeah, and to have an informal chat about their career, their ambitions, their side projects, and she put a call-out on her Instagram saying, "If you want to start a chapter in your own city, get in touch."
Émilie Chen:
And I thought it was a lovely idea because I had been in the industry a while, but I hadn't studied here, so most of the people that I know as designer were men. And yeah, I had mainly worked in two places, so I didn't have a huge pool of designers around me to start with. So yeah, I answered the call. Another woman, Helen Frill, an illustrator, had answered the call. I roped in someone that was working with me at The National Theatre, Louise Richardson, and yeah, we just started having drinks at the lobby of The National Theatre once a month. [laughs] And word of mouth, it grew really fast. There was just a real appetite for women working in industry to come together and discuss. We got offered spaces at agency to host events, so we started doing talks and portfolio reviews. And yeah-
Steve Folland:
Wow
Émilie Chen:
... it just grew really fast.
Émilie Chen:
And even though I'm an introvert, my confidence also grew with it, as it was quite an organic process. And yeah, for a while I was kind of more helping with things behind the scenes or, yeah, while the more extroverted members of the team were kind of leading the conversations. But little by little, I felt the confidence that I could do that and introduce talks and stuff like this.
Émilie Chen:
And the interesting part of this, so if we go back to your question about freelancers, I met a lot of freelancers. One woman studios, and we did a talk about going solo. At this stage, I was still not thinking that I would go freelance, but all of this was basically, yeah, information I was gathering at the back of my mind. And when eventually I was like, "Maybe I want to do freelance," I basically reached out to a lot of these women that I had met through the group and say, "Would you mind going for coffee? I think this is something that I might do if I can't find the right role, and I'd love your advice in terms of how do you go around finding clients, what advice you have for me, what type of challenges you met." And just, yeah, again, just build up my confidence, meeting all these different women, having different ways of working, telling me this is possible. I guess you can't be what you can't see, right? So, yeah.
Steve Folland:
Yeah.
Émilie Chen:
That's what happened. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
And all comes from that, well, not just sitting there thinking, "Oh, that's a nice idea, wine and ladies that design," but actually making it happen in your city.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah.
Steve Folland:
Love it.
Émilie Chen:
[laughs] I mean, yeah, I still can't believe how we just started, like eight women in at the lobby of the National Theatre, not really knowing what we were doing. And then, yeah, by the time I left, so seven years in, we had like 4,000 followers on Instagram. We were invited to run even with Glog and DNA, The New Blood. It was incredible. [laughs]
Steve Folland:
So that also presumably raised your profile. You weren't just an in-house designer.
Émilie Chen:
Mm.
Steve Folland:
You had a profile of your own?
Émilie Chen:
I guess informally, we never promoted. We were always a team. So by the end of it, I was the one that had been there the longest by far. [laughs] Everyone else moved to different city or had babies and stopped doing this. So yeah, I was the person that was associated with it for the longest. And while I never pushed it on social or on LinkedIn, never posted about this, people in the industry that we had met through events, started knowing of me and following me and then seeing the work that I was doing. So I definitely feel like, yeah, it has led to other opportunities as well, like talking at universities and stuff like this. But yeah, I guess I have a bit of a profile behind the scene. Again, I don't have a really public profile in term of design, but yeah, that's what was happening. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
So you start to feel like you might want to go freelance.
Émilie Chen:
Exactly.
Steve Folland:
You're having these conversations, but you haven't gone yet. So what happened?
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. So I had these eight months where I put a lot of money aside and had these chats, worked on my portfolio. And one thing that I started thinking about, the other thing that I would love to do is book cover designs.
Émilie Chen:
So I had a look at jobs board, and I saw a job advertised for a role at Penguin Books. But Penguin Books is huge, obviously. They have a lot of team, and it was for an imprint I didn't know of, and I couldn't really find much information about them online. So I reached out to someone I had met socially at, which was a book cover designer, David Pearson, the legendary David Pearson. [laughs] Yeah, and just ask him over email, "Oh, I've seen this ad. I'm thinking about applying. Do you know anything about them? Do you have any advice?" And he told me, "Oh, it's a really commercial team. I don't know if it's quite the right fit for you, but they also do quite interesting work. But you know what? I know someone who worked there. You should reach out to them." Again, I'm keeping the details quite loose and because I don't want the person to get in trouble. But basically, I emailed that person out of the blue saying, "Oh, I've been told you work there by David. Would you mind telling me your experience?" And he said, "Yeah, don't go there."
Émilie Chen:
[laughs]
Steve Folland:
[laughs] I thought this was about to be, "Yeah, come in." [laughs]
Émilie Chen:
No. I mean, they had left, and so they said, "I would not recommend it." And I was like, "Oh, okay. Well, thanks for letting me know." And then they say, "Have you considered freelancing? Just contacting different art directors at publishing houses around London to see if you could get some work." And I said, "Oh, I'm, yeah, I don't really have any contacts, and my preference would be a full-time job, but I'm open to try freelance." And they basically sent me an A4 both-sided sheet with everyone's email address and names.
Steve Folland:
Ah. That's like finding the Holy Grail of something.
Émilie Chen:
[laughs] I know. I mean, unbelievable, like such generosity. Which is also why, yeah, I mean, basically all my freelance career, I mean, the building up the courage to go freelance came from meeting all these very generous freelancers. And I think yes, there's a lot of... people don't really talk between themselves. They feel like they can't reach out to the people for advice or stuff like this. But my experience has been people are unbelievably generous with their advice, with their time. They're really supportive. They're really championing each other. And up to today, I've got a couple of WhatsApp groups going with all the freelancers, and the support we give each other is pretty unbelievable. So yeah, I think the industry is unbelievably friendly and supportive. If you just dare to put yourself out there, to knock at the door, to say hi. And obviously some people are busy, they won't respond, and all of this, but most of my experience has been incredibly positive.
Steve Folland:
So you have this document.
Émilie Chen:
[laughs] Yes. This Holy Grail. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
But you've still got to make the most of it. So what happened?
Émilie Chen:
So I emailed a few people on there. Obviously, I was still working full-time at the National Theatre. I didn't have much time, but I was really selective about the people I was contacting. I reached out to Jim Stoddart at Penguin Books, Penguin Press, the team where David used to work, and he responded pretty immediately saying, "Oh, your book is really nice. We're not looking for support right now, but I'll keep your details on file." And then, yeah, I basically had a few nice chat with different people. There's only one that materialized into a brief, which was for Donna Payne at Faber & Faber.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. So I worked with them on a project, which sadly was canned. It didn't go live. It was for the Playtext collection, which they still haven't rebranded 10 years later on, so I guess [laughs] it's quite a hard place to change things, I guess. But yeah, so I had that one freelance brief going. Then I had a friend at the National Theatre that was working as a producer that got offered to do something independently on the side, so she got me on board to work on it as well. So yeah, I had those couple of briefs going on, but still not much. I was still applying to a couple of permanent position. But yeah, I got to the end of my seven, eight months period I had given myself, and I didn't have a job. I had these couple of things going and enough money, I guess, to be like, "I don't have to rush into the next thing. Let's see how it goes." [laughs]
Émilie Chen:
So I work on this couple of freelance brief, carry on looking for opportunities on the side, reached back out to Jim at the Penguin Books, three months out of the National Theatre by then, and he's like, "You know what? Someone on my team just went on a sabbatical leave to write a book, and I've been looking for someone to replace them. Do you want to come in for a chat?" So yeah.
Steve Folland:
Because you followed up.
Émilie Chen:
Because I followed up, yes!
Steve Folland:
Yeah.
Émilie Chen:
I know. I mean, [laughs] the recipe is always the same. It's really hard for people to apply, but it's always the answer. Reach out to people. Follow up. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
Follow up. So sorry, go on. [laughs] So he's got something for you.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. So I went in for a chat and, yeah, they offered me the fixed term contract at Penguin Books for five months.
Steve Folland:
So it's working full-time there, right?
Émilie Chen:
For five months, but obviously I've been putting out feelers for freelance as well, so then another really nice freelance opportunity has come my way, is asked to pitch for Somerset House on their summer series concert-
Steve Folland:
Wow
Émilie Chen:
... campaign. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
Okay. So for those who don't know, in London, Somerset House is a big beautiful venue, but their summer series is a huge deal, and it's-
Émilie Chen:
Yeah
Steve Folland:
... advertised everywhere.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. So it's a beautiful historical building with an open-air courtyard where they have selected numbers of high-profile musician from different genre play one night, in the summer. Yeah. Actually, yeah, maybe there's another interesting story there in term of advice to give, and I owe the advice to another amazing freelancer, Sarah Boris, which again, was very generous with her advice. And they approached me to pitch. I know there were three people of three agencies pitching. I guess the first thing to know is they got my name from the National Theatre because, obviously art institutions in London, especially ones with some kind of performance element, they all connected these marketing people.
Steve Folland:
Yeah.
Émilie Chen:
So they got my name from across the pond because [laughs] the building also just across from each other by the riverside. So yeah, and so they reached out to me. I think the other two people they were speaking to were agencies. And, they sent me the brief, but then no mention of fee.
Émilie Chen:
And basically, Sarah had told me how strongly she felt about pitching for free and how important it was to educate client. She had written an article about this for the AIGA website. And so I reached out to Sarah saying, "There's that thing happening. I think there's no budget to do the pitch, and I don't feel really comfortable doing this, but also, yeah, it's an amazing opportunity." So yeah, she said, "You should talk to them." And so I talked to them. I explained to them, "It's devaluing the industry. It's bad practice. It also... there's a strong advantage for, and privilege for an agency to pitch against a single freelancer because obviously they can work with budget from commercial clients to cover their time, and I don't have that luxury." So they heard me, and they offered a symbolic fee, but they offered me a fee.
Steve Folland:
Good for you. And that's because in that pitch process you would've been generating ideas.
Émilie Chen:
Yes.
Steve Folland:
Or mock-ups and... Right.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah.
Steve Folland:
Yeah, yeah.
Émilie Chen:
They wanted three design proposal. I'm like, "This is like several days of work."
Steve Folland:
Yeah.
Émilie Chen:
So I got paid. I won that pitch. I ended up doing their campaigns.
Steve Folland:
Come on.
Émilie Chen:
[laughs] And then they approached me a year later again, and they were offering across the board to everyone the same nominal fee they had given me.
Steve Folland:
So you made a change as well.
Émilie Chen:
So I made a change.
Steve Folland:
[sighs]
Émilie Chen:
So yeah. Speak to people. Don't be scared. And I guess, yeah, if they had had a bad reaction, I would have lost an amazing opportunity, but also they were probably not the kind of client that would have valued me or any freelancer the way that we need to be.
Steve Folland:
Mm.
Émilie Chen:
So I'm glad. I'm glad I found the courage. And again, it was a tiny amount of money, a few hundred pounds, but the fact that they offered this and then that they offered this across the board, like is a really positive change for the industry.
Steve Folland:
So your first almost proper freelance gig-
Émilie Chen:
Yeah
Steve Folland:
... is Somerset House.
Émilie Chen:
[laughs] No, I had done some other but much smaller scale projects by then, but yeah, that was a big-
Steve Folland:
Nice
Émilie Chen:
... the big project while working at Penguin Books, so yeah. I basically took a couple of days off to work on the design, and there were a lot of lunchtime where I was basically doing resizes. [laughs]Yeah. [chuckles] But yeah, that took me pretty much to the end of my contract at Penguin Books. And at this stage, actually, there was an opening in another team at Penguin Books, and they got me in for a chat. So I could have stayed at Penguin, but I got really bad vibes from them, so I basically was like, "I'm not going to take that job." And it was easier to walk out knowing that I was wrapping up a big campaign for Somerset House and being like, "You know what? Maybe this freelance thing has legs."
Steve Folland:
[gasps] But how did you make the most of those legs? Where did it take you [chuckles] to next? Yeah, I'm not going to stretch the leg metaphor.
Émilie Chen:
[laughs] I've been freelancing solidly ever since. That was April 2019. And in term of where I've been finding my work, I feel unbelievably lucky that having come from the National Theatre, I have a niche.
Steve Folland:
Right.
Émilie Chen:
And also, it's a very small niche where the people that commission you are a lot of marketers that have been moving around different theaters. So basically, it's been people I work with at the National Theatre that have moved to other venues or other theaters that have, yeah, given me opportunities, put me on the name on the pitch list, or, yeah, or recommended me to their colleagues. And this is, yeah, this has just been a constant stream of work ever since, basically. So I know people don't necessarily value in-house roles in the design industry, but the pipeline from in-house to freelancer is unbelievable. The number of people who I know who have done this and who are really successful at it because they built the network of clients-
Steve Folland:
Mm.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah, while working in these institutions is incredible.
Steve Folland:
Yeah. What a network. But also, though, you've got to keep those relationships alive or have been remembered in the first place.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. That's true. That's true. It's definitely how you treat people. The Young Vic has been a client pretty much solidly since 2019, and how I got it at The Young Vic is it wasn't a marketer. It was someone who had worked as a PA for the head of marketing at The National Theatre who had moved there that gave my name. So-
Steve Folland:
So that's another big London theatre in The Young Vic.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah.
Steve Folland:
Lovely.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. Again, it wasn't a marketer. It's also how you treat everyone in the venue. So yeah, that's also how people remember you, basically. So yeah.
Steve Folland:
It's also great because actually, by the end of your time at The National Theatre, it sounded like you were quite burnt out, like you weren't necessarily into that role as much anymore.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah.
Steve Folland:
But those bridges weren't burnt by the sounds of it.
Émilie Chen:
No, absolutely not. I think I left in good terms with absolutely everyone there.
Steve Folland:
Yeah.
Émilie Chen:
And I think also people kind of understood something was off in the studio because I was a fifth, out of seven designer, I was the fifth to go within nine months, so it's definitely not a me problem. [laughs]
Steve Folland:
[laughs] So really, it's been word of mouth ever since? Or how actively would you say you're putting yourself out there or marketing yourself?
Émilie Chen:
So I guess what's important for me is, and one thing that I really value about freelancing, is not being pigeonholed to just one thing. And people know me for the theatre, and it's probably, I've worked out it's about 60% of my workload, 60, 65% of my workload, but it allows me to pursue opportunities outside of theatre on the side as well. And this is where I had to do more outreach, I guess. But a lot of it has just been quite organic. Yeah, and also something to point out is I went freelance 11 months before lockdown. Working mainly with theatres all the theatres were closed overnight-
Steve Folland:
Yeah
Émilie Chen:
... when lockdown hit. So yeah, basically pretty much all of my client base disappeared overnight, which was a bit scary. I managed to, yeah, use my publishing contacts to get a couple of book covers brief, but they don't pay a lot. But what happened is two agencies, different agency had found me because I had profiles on some freelance repository online. So there was The Dots. They were quite big in the early 2020s. I'm not sure. I haven't really heard of them in a while now, but yeah, I had a profile with them. But there's 100 and 100 and 100 of people. How the agency found me is still, I'm like, "Yeah, that was quite a lucky find." But yeah, so that was one job that kept me busy for three, four months.
Steve Folland:
So that's like an online directory called The Dots.
Émilie Chen:
Yes.
Steve Folland:
Well, they had the community and stuff going on as well, didn't they?
Émilie Chen:
Yeah.
Steve Folland:
But yeah, so the directory allowed people to search for you and find you.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah.
Steve Folland:
Nice.
Émilie Chen:
And then later down the line, I was found because I had, again, put a really short profile on Creative Mornings website, had attended a couple of, yeah, events, had just put my website address and put one of my preferred poster on my thumbnail, and the person who was running the event was working as a studio manager for an agency, so yeah, that's how they found me. And again, that kept me busy for a good few months. And yeah, basically these two big agency job tide me over during the pandemic until the theatres reopen. And when the theatres reopened, my inbox started, yeah, flowing again with this type of job. So yeah, I feel really lucky.
Steve Folland:
But you did mention that you've been doing outreach-
Émilie Chen:
Yes
Steve Folland:
... into other fields as well.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. Not necessarily. [chuckles] It's a lot of luck, to be honest, because I don't do it often. I don't follow up. Another thing I wanted to point out, yeah, the Henry Moore Foundation, which is probably my second most regular client, after The Young Vic, also it came from, yeah, a repertory which was Designers of Colors that had been started by someone in publishing, and I expected it would just been watched by- People in publishing, but apparently not. So [chuckles] that came through that way as well. And then in term of outreach, it's been more speaking to museum. I'd love to work with the V&A, so I went to a talk that the head of design there was doing, and then followed up.
Émilie Chen:
Went for coffee.
Steve Folland:
Okay. I was going to say, because-
Émilie Chen:
Yeah
Steve Folland:
... it's one thing to go to a talk-
Émilie Chen:
Yes
Steve Folland:
... by the head of design at a museum-
Émilie Chen:
Yeah
Steve Folland:
... a massive museum,
Steve Folland:
but presumably you went up and said hi.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah, I did. I did at the end.
Steve Folland:
Okay.
Émilie Chen:
I waited for the room to empty. [laughs] Because obviously there were a lot of people in there and I feel really self-conscious. But yeah, I went to say hi at the end and said, "Yeah, I'd love to meet them." And they say, "Oh, just send me an email." And they gave me their email address, so yeah.
Steve Folland:
And then they met you for coffee?
Émilie Chen:
And then they met me for coffee, yeah.
Steve Folland:
Come on.
Émilie Chen:
[laughs]
Steve Folland:
That's not nothing, though.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah.
Steve Folland:
You could just go to that talk and that would be it.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. But I had to psych myself up knowing, I don't know how many opportunities I have to bump into these people, so I should really use that opportunity [chuckles] for this. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
Oh, I love that.
Émilie Chen:
[laughs]
Steve Folland:
So sorry, though, but did you end up working with that museum?
Émilie Chen:
No, not yet.
Steve Folland:
Not yet.
Émilie Chen:
Since then, I've just dropped an email once a year maybe, and every time she replies, so I feel like I still have a chance there. Something else that I did, I would love to work with The Guardian. But that was back in 2020 before the pandemic. I sent a really nice mailer. I think if you work as an illustrator or any visual profession, email box, you can disappear pretty fast in [chuckles] the black hole of everyone's emails box. But a nice mailer, if addressed to the right person, lands on someone's desk and it stays there. So yeah, I sent a couple of postcard pack with my favorite posters to the two creative directors there. And yeah, Chris Clark brought me in for a chat. And yeah, it was really complimentary, really lovely, and an opportunity came up to work with them pretty soon after that, but I couldn't take it on, and that was just before the pandemic. And since then, I've kept knocking at that door, and it still hasn't happened. But again, Chris always replies. I bump into him at various design talks, and he's always friendly and complimentary about my work. So maybe there's still a chance that at some point [chuckles] it will come through.
Steve Folland:
I love the physical post element of it. Have you done that since?
Émilie Chen:
No, I have not. I should, though.
Steve Folland:
Time for another one. Stamps are more expensive now, though.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. [chuckles] But someone else that I mailed at the time was someone else working in a different department at The Guardian, and she moved up to Apple pretty soon after. And she never replied to me about getting that. But again, I bumped into her in the D&AD New Blood event last year, and she told me, "Oh, I remember your pack of card. I still have them pinned over my desk at Apple." And I was like [chuckles] "What?!"
Steve Folland:
Wow.
Émilie Chen:
[laughs] So I think, yeah, you make an impression. You might not get a response, but you make an impression and you're much more likely to be remembered.
Steve Folland:
So it sounds like going to events, like you're making the most of being in a big city-
Émilie Chen:
Yeah
Steve Folland:
... and going to these sort of things.
Émilie Chen:
Yes, absolutely. I'm a designer and I've always been going to a lot of event. But before doing Ladies Wine Design, I don't know if I would have the courage to [chuckles] walk up to the speaker at the end of the event and say hi.
Steve Folland:
So will you make a point of going up to people when you go to these things?
Émilie Chen:
Not necessarily in all event, but if it's someone I feel like I want to work with or someone whose talk really touched a nerve or moved me, then I will. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
And when it comes to staying in touch with the people that you've met over the years, are you systematic about staying in touch with them or?
Émilie Chen:
I'm absolutely rubbish at this. [laughs] I guess the thing is, there are a few design groups in London. There's a lot of overlap. So you do bump into the same people in person from time to time. Also, yeah, I spoke at Birmingham Design Festival two years ago, and same. It connected me with so many incredible people. It was such a lovely environment. And they don't pay you to speak, but they give you a free pass every year. So [chuckles] I've been going back and hanging out with Malika Favre last year and Chris Clark again. It's unbelievable the access that places like this give you. But yeah, it means that you have to go past the discomfort to stay in the room with them, maybe follow the group to the pub, this kind of stuff. And that, I know it can be quite hard if you're an introvert, and I'm an introvert, so yeah, I needed Ladies Wine and Design to just get me over that hump about, yeah, that you can do this.
Émilie Chen:
But yeah, I don't have any formal way to follow up with people. I basically only email people when things get quiet, and then maybe once a year for [chuckles] a two months window where I'll panic and be like, "Oh, [laughing] things have gone quiet. I don't know how long it will be." And then I start emailing lots of people. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
How did you make that step then from being somebody quite happily organising in the background to somebody standing on a stage?
Émilie Chen:
Again, it just came organically. And also the fact that the events were quite small for quite a long time. Getting up in front of a room of 20 women, most of which who you've met at other events before and have always been really friendly, is not as daunting. And then little by little, the room gets bigger, or little by little, so the fact that pretty much all the events I spoke at were events where I've attended events there before in the audience. So I know the people in the room are lovely, so that helps. [laughing] That helps. And then, yeah, always having a friendly face and getting an amazing response. People following up after, saying how they felt inspired to try something different, that they love my work or, yeah. It's fuel to help you get over the nervousness, and there's always nerves for the first five minutes. But yeah, as soon as you get a laugh at a joke you've given, or you get a mmm of appreciation from the room where you reveal some work, then yeah, your nervous system relax and you're like, "Ah, I've got this," and you just get into the flow of talking about what you have to talk about. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
Nice. One thing I did notice on your LinkedIn was there's a period of you being a freelance art director and designer.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah.
Steve Folland:
2018 to 2021. And then it says-
Émilie Chen:
[laughing]
Steve Folland:
... independent art director and designer, 2021 to today. So literally, just one word has changed.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah.
Steve Folland:
And I was wondering about that, what brought that change, what difference that has made.
Émilie Chen:
I guess behind the scene, the change is due from it from switching from sole trader to a limited company. In term of positioning myself, it's more, I guess, I realize that when you tend to speak to people, and you say you're a freelance designer, they assume that you doing contract work for agencies and studios.
Émilie Chen:
And the reality of my work is more that I operate as a one-woman studio. But I feel weird about calling myself a studio. I know lots of people think this is a way to go, but I feel it's a bit misleading in term of maybe the size of your studio, and then if you say one-woman studio, it just doesn't sound really good. [chuckles] Yeah. So I landed on independent because I felt like it was the truest to what I do.
Émilie Chen:
And also I love the connotation that comes with the word independent, like independent thinking, indie musicians. There's a kind of image it convokes that I think is quite nice and I feel reflects the way that I work.
Steve Folland:
Yeah. It's interesting that, so you feel like the word freelance in your industry, in particular anyway, has a connotation where you're likely to go in for a short period of time and do what somebody asks you to do. But as an independent designer, people will come to you, and you're working on this by your own fruition, your own terms.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. And I guess also working in the, doing many theatre posters, you get a credit on the poster. And so this is how you get your name out there as well. I said that most of my theatre work has come from word of mouth, but there's also been a couple of instances where people have literally read the credits in small print at the bottom of the poster and be like, "I love this." Literally someone saw the poster on the tube and found my name this way and contacted me. So this is also important, and I guess it's the same with book cover designers. You get your name on the book jacket. So having an actual person's name rather than a studio, also it puts a stamp on it, like an illustrator, like this is my style that you're buying into. This is my ideas. So yeah. There's a lot of debate in our theatre poster WhatsApp group in term of how to call ourselves. Is we designers, image makers, artists?
Steve Folland:
From freelance to independent, but you have stuck with your name, which is on the poster or in the book cover, rather than going, for example, with a company name.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. Again, for the reason kind of outlined before, I think, yeah, people knowing that they buy into one-person aesthetic rather than expecting a certain kind of service. And I guess that's the difference between maybe people coming to you because they want a poster and people that come to you because they want a poster from you.
Steve Folland:
Nice. Yeah.
Émilie Chen:
And I've got to a place where when I get an inquiry, I can very much know whether or not this is the first or the second one. And if it's the first one, I'm likely to say no.
Steve Folland:
It must be hard to say what that gut feeling is.
Émilie Chen:
People will usually say, "I love your work. I saw the poster you did for so and so. I thought it was great." Everyone responds well to flattery. But then there's also, yeah, you can just tell if an email is a copy-paste. I think you can tell across any industry, like yeah, where people just dive straight into, this is what we need and this is when we need it by.
Steve Folland:
That's so true. Yes.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. [chuckles] Make me feel special.
Émilie Chen:
[laughing]
Steve Folland:
Just want to ask you about work-life balance as well. Do you work from home?
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. I'm literally working from my bedroom. [laughs]
Steve Folland:
Nice. But yes, how's work-life balance for you?
Émilie Chen:
I think it's pretty good. I feel like I work well, but I work pretty much a 10:00 to 6:00, 6:30 PM every day. I'm a creature of habit, which is one of the reason that I didn't think that freelance was for me, is I like routines. I like knowing how things work and stuff like this. So yeah, I work pretty much a 10:00 to 6:00. And also, yeah, again, I'm an introvert, so I actually really enjoy working from my own space rather than going to cafes or co-working spaces. But that also means that in the evening, I've got a full social battery to go out and do stuff, like going to design talks and, yeah, design events. But also, something that I do is that it's quite important in my practice, even though it's not necessarily a big business thing, is doing things like mentoring, portfolio reviews, yeah, a bit of lecturing, and that often happen in the evening as well. Like last week, I took part in an event organized by The Arena, a portfolio review event. And I think it's important to, yeah, give back because I can very much owe my career to all these people who believed in me or who were generous with their time and advice, so I kind of want to do the same. And also, it keeps you energized, meeting other creative, especially people that are much younger that think differently from you. It keeps you on your toes, and I really like that. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
Lovely. So what would you say you found the most challenging part of being freelance?
Émilie Chen:
There are a few things. Negotiating money is quite tough, but ultimately, the thing that I go back to, and yeah, it's become kind of a joke with my friends, is I think one of the hardest bit of this life is be a good boss to yourself.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah, if you worked in any kind of setting with an employer, it's easy to get frustrated with the decisions they make, feel like they don't respect your time or value your expertise, or that the processes are all wrong. But when you become your own boss, then it's on you to make all these decisions, and I think it's also important to look at it holistically. Because mental health is a really important thing to deal with as well, especially when you're a freelancer and you don't know when your next job is going to come through, and you have a bad experience with a client, you get dropped from a project. You have to deal with rejection and being really disciplined about things. So yeah, I feel like being a good boss to yourself, knowing when is it that you actually you've been going at it for too long and you need a break and, prioritizing holiday as much as you do pursuing work, negotiating what your worth is, having uncomfortable conversations because ultimately it will make your life easier. Like the thing about the pitching, all these things are really important, but it means you, yeah, you have to hold yourself to a very high standard.
Steve Folland:
You've mentioned a lot about sort of the sense of community-
Émilie Chen:
Mm
Steve Folland:
... talking openly to other designers, freelancers.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah.
Steve Folland:
Is that where most of your kind of development or thinking around freelancing has come from? Or have you been a mentee? Have you had coaching? Any of those kind of things?
Émilie Chen:
The community is a really important thing in any kind of freelance position that you are if you can find your people, because it can be a really lonely life, then it makes a huge difference. So now, yeah, I mentioned briefly I have that WhatsApp group with other theater poster designers, independent theater poster designers. Very niche.
Steve Folland:
[laughs]
Émilie Chen:
There's about 15 of us with people that are more comedian and stuff like this, but yeah. And it's been unbelievably supportive. We share things like contract terms. If someone has a bad experience with clients, they send us the email and everyone will kind of get their head together and make suggestion about how to respond. If someone has a really busy month and can't take on any work and they have to pass down work, they just put a call out in the group chat saying, "Does anyone wants to take this?" People share about how much they charge. So yeah, it's incredibly supportive and yeah, I feel really lucky to be part of this community, which was started by Laura Whitehouse, another one of your amazing guests actually.
Steve Folland:
Ah!
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. She's the one who started this, so yeah. And same, she just reached out. She reached out through Instagram saying, "I've been following you for a while. We do the same type of work. How about we started chatting? I'm talking to other people, too." And then, yeah, it turned into meeting at the pub and then the WhatsApp group was created, and it's been going strong for three years now. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
That's so cool.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah!
Steve Folland:
You can hear how important community is to Émilie. If you want to come and join our community of freelancers, it is at beingfreelance.com. Click on Community. We will see you in there. It's a really nice private chat forum, so it's not publicly talking about issues that you might have with your clients or anything like people might do on LinkedIn. It's all private, because we host it on a platform called Circle. We do loads of regular livestreams, co-working sessions. We even meet up in real life occasionally as well. And what's really lovely, last week I saw people from the community going off to one of the big events in the country together and all hanging out together. So I was nothing to do with it. It wasn't one of our organized things, but it happens because people are making friends in the group. Why not come find us? Go to beingfreelance.com, click on Community, and I'll see you in there. Right now, let's get back to Émilie's story.
Steve Folland:
Did you have coaching as well?
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. At one point I also work with a coach to, yeah, work on my confidence around pricing. I'm still not really good at it, [laughs] so sorry, Tim. It was quite an interesting process trying to find the person to work with as a coach because there are a lot of people that put a lot of emphasis around the business side and the processes, and I felt like I needed someone to help me think bigger and to be more ambitious in term of, yeah, like "Have you thought about doing this thing that's really different from what you do?" Or encourage me to do public speaking and stuff like this and put myself more out there on LinkedIn and... But also that person used to work in TV. Yeah, basically they also introduced me to a lot of people working in TV, and that has led to a couple of project with the BBC. So yeah, that's contacts. Contacts, recommendations are invaluable in term of finding work, too.
Steve Folland:
But that coaching was more around, it sounds more like mindset.
Émilie Chen:
Yes. Yeah. What I liked about them, and they were working with a couple of other designer friends that are not really pure designers, if you know what I mean. They were people that were also doing teaching on the side or selling their own merchandising, so they were kind of more like illustrators/artists doing public art commissions, and I like that about them. I was like, I know I have a lot of thing in my arsenal. I don't really know how to talk about this. I've got the Domestika course. I do a bit of lecturing. I like the mentoring. I don't know if I want to do anything that more, less actual practical design and more about, I don't know if it's consulting or coaching or mentoring or running classes. And it was really helpful to talk to that person to just like, yeah, keep an open mind about where I could go and, yeah, have a think about not seeing myself just as a designer/art director. Yeah. So that was helpful. I think I wasn't really ready to switch gears from the design, but it has given me a lot of food for thought, and I think it's definitely something that I will revisit at some point. So maybe we need to have another chat in six years' time or something, and [laughs] I'll be calling myself something completely different to you.
Steve Folland:
[laughs] Now, Émilie, if you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance, what would that be?
Émilie Chen:
I think just do it.
Émilie Chen:
I'm someone who I think is quite risk adverse, someone who likes my comfort, my routines, having processes in place and people to go to. So I always felt like working for someone was just the natural thing for me, and it took years for me to actually consider that freelance might be an option, and to make the jump. So freelance is not scary, maybe [laughs] is what I would tell them. And you will love it. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
Oh, Émilie, it's been so good to chat today. Is Ladies Wine and Design still going? It's just that you're not doing it.
Émilie Chen:
Yeah, exactly. It's still going.
Steve Folland:
Okay.
Émilie Chen:
I had a year overlap with two women that are really amazing, Joanna and Vale, that took over and have been running it, have grown the team. So yeah, they're still going. There are chapters all around the UK as well, so if your listeners are not based in London, definitely look up if there's a local chapter.
Steve Folland:
Are they all around the world?
Émilie Chen:
Yeah. I don't know how many are still active, but at one point, there were over 300 chapters around the world.
Steve Folland:
No way. Oh, come on, there's still got to be one near you somewhere. If you liked the idea of Ladies Wine and Design, then-
Émilie Chen:
Or Ladies Cake and Design. [laughs]
Steve Folland:
[laughs] Then go find that. Émilie, it's been so good to talk to you. Love what you're doing and the way you're doing it. Make sure you go to beingfreelance.com because there'll be links through so that you can find Émilie online. But for now, thanks so much. I'll catch up with you in six years then, shall I?
Émilie Chen:
[laughs]
Steve Folland:
All the best, being freelance!
Émilie Chen:
Thanks, Steve. Bye.
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