Market Research Consultant Katie Tucker
About this podcast episode…
MARKET RESEARCH CONSULTANT KATIE TUCKER
Katie shares how being intentional - with her time, energy, and choices - helped her build a freelance life that truly fits.
From walking away from a corporate job for a family adventure to launching her freelance business Product Jungle and writing excellent business book Do Penguins Eat Peaches?, Katie opens up about patience, priorities, and the reality of balancing work, parenting, and wellbeing.
In this episode we cover:
The leap from corporate to freelancing after a family gap year
How writing Do Penguins Eat Peaches? helped shape her business
Balancing client work with parenting and self-care
Why understanding your customer starts with asking better questions
The power of patience, pricing, and permission
Plus ,we discover the one market research mistake that freelancers and small business most often make. Make sure you catch it and avoid it yourself!
Available as a video podcast too - Watch here on the site, on YouTube, or Spotify.
Read a full transcript & get Links in the tabs.
More from KATIE TUCKER
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and market research consultant Katie Tucker
[00:01:59] Steve Folland: As ever how about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?
[00:02:03] Katie Tucker: Yeah, so my freelance journey, it wasn't like an epiphany, like one day I was like, right, I wanna be my own boss. I feel like it gradually evolved out of just feeling a bit stale. I was in a corporate, job that, you know, I really enjoyed and I'd done all different things and I could just feel that, you know, I wasn't getting enough out of it and lacking a bit of creativity and frustration around how slow things move. But I didn't really think too deeply about it.
So what I did is... We decided to go on a crazy family gap year for 10 months. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna have a break. We're gonna go and do this big adventure. Can I have a sabbatical? And they were like, okay, we only do three months. And I was like, yeah, but we wanna go for a year. So I was like, Hmm, okay. Well I quit then.
So I quit the corporate job and then went on this big trip thinking that I'd have the epiphany on the way, and obviously 'cause we went with like a 9-year-old and a 3-year-old Steve, you'd appreciate that. There's not much time to think about, you know, having, you know, it wasn't like a, a solo yoga retreat for a year, so I didn't actually get a lot of chance to think about it until towards the end.
When, you know, we were all running out of energy and patience and it was, it was time to come home. I just did like a, an online course, like kind of find your way. And I did have the option to go back to my job. Like, I think that would've been a possibility, but I was like, no, I really don't. I don't think I wanna do that.
So I started exploring, you know, writing again, 'cause I did train as a journalist, Steve initially, like a reporter. And I thought, okay, maybe I can go back into like freelancing for that. But then I came back and like COVID arrived quite promptly after. So then I was kind of a bit stuck. And to be honest, I didn't do much for a, for a whole year.
I had a few opportunities and then they got canceled when COVID arrived. So I spent a year probably feeling quite sorry for myself and thinking, how the hell is this freelance thing gonna work out? Have I made the wrong, the wrong call?
[00:04:11] Steve Folland: So at that point you were freelancing as a journalist?
[00:04:14] Katie Tucker: So I, no, I wasn't, I'd, I'd written a few things for, for free, like about the trip, but nothing that was making like anywhere near enough money to pay to pay bills.
I took on a really random project from a charity, which was, helping them redesign their website with like content, but then it ended up being also actually creating the website in WordPress, which... you know, I probably had half the skills to do that. That wasn't my core... But I thought, okay, it's a bit of money.
But then I ended up spending way too long on something that costs, like they paid me like a thousand pounds, Steve, and like, you know, it probably worked out like half a pence a day in the long run. But it kept me a little bit busy and I was putting my feelers out for other things.
But it was a difficult time with COVID. A lot of companies were, kind of, you know, freezing, on their hires. So, in parallel to the writing, I was looking for things around what I was doing in my corporate job, which was product management, which is for those who don't, know that function within a company, it's the ones who kind of like understand what your customer wants.
Work with tech to get it built and then work with marketing to kind of market it and, and sell it. Then listen to what customers have to say about it. And then the loop starts kind of all over again. So I was looking for things along those lines as well. You know, nothing was coming that easy at that time.
But then I did reach out to a few contacts who I used to work with who'd moved on to other companies. And that's when I got my first kind of, first real client that actually, you know, paid some decent money. And that was, I think it was like end of 2020. So I was about a year. Thinking, what am I doing here?
Do I, do I, you know, do I go the whole way with this or do I just try and get another job? But I, there was something inside me that was like, just keep going. Be patient. Something will happen.
[00:06:11] Steve Folland: What was the draw of not getting a job but doing your own thing?
[00:06:15] Katie Tucker: It was really... the freedom, I'd say. It was never really, you know, obviously as a woman, you know, I have two children. It wasn't ever, you know, if I'm being honest, you know, I want to have a really good work life balance and spend loads of time with my kids. Not, that sounds terrible, but it wasn't like the primary driver. I think it was more around, you know, what can I do on my own, like, how I can drive like a process or a particular project, without all the interferences and all the, the noises from what it's like to work in a big company where there's, you know, there's a lot of, stakeholder management.
So I was really keen on, yeah, just being more autonomous, I suppose, the independence that it brings. And then by, you know, by default, my children obviously... you know, they do need you, of course. But then one of them actually needed me much more than, than I anticipated. And it was, I'm glad I made that decision 'cause it actually allowed me to have that freedom because I just remember the days when I was in corporate and dropping one off at nursery, dropping one off at school, coming back, you know, having a, a job with responsibilities and, and pressure and just thinking, looking back now thinking, how the hell did I hold all that together to be honest.
[00:07:35] Steve Folland: So were you then at the end of 2020, like a freelance product manager?
[00:07:41] Katie Tucker: Yes. So I went into, it started off product management and what I wanted to do is take out that customer research bit from product management, which is the, the beginning, you know, that bit where you're trying to understand your customers.
And now I do mainly that, but also kind of special project type freelance work where I come in and help companies with a whole process, but it's always linked to, you know, customers basically.
[00:08:07] Steve Folland: So how did you like beyond that first client doing that role at the end of 2020, how did you move things forward?
How, how were you marketing yourself, getting clients?
[00:08:19] Katie Tucker: Yeah, so I think I was, I've really mainly used my network. I do post, consistently ish on LinkedIn. I think that's the main platform for me in terms of, you know, the bigger, type of clients that I attract on the corporate side. But it's mainly been, you know, when I feel like, oh, this project's gonna come to an end, or I go back through like, all the people that I worked with, you know, this is now probably 15 years ago when I was in that corporate, but at least 50, 60% of the people that I worked with who knew me well, you know, we'd worked on things together, have moved on to other companies, and I try and always, keep in touch with those people and use, you know, the odd message if they've got a new role and say, oh, hi, you know.
Congratulations. You know, it's not always pushing for a conversation, but just always saying hello, you know, remember me, we did good work together. and that has served me well over the years. It's kind of already an open door. Yeah, you're pushing an open door almost, because, you know, those people I think it's easier.
And I'm lucky because that first contract, Steve, at the end of 2020 has turned into, you know, a four year relationship on and off. With different, you know, that company was sold and bought by another one and different, people have come on board in terms of running the teams, but I've managed to stay close and relevant and that's been the foundation I think, of my freelance business, which, you know, it's taken me a while to... to really embrace that Steve, and say it's okay to have like one main client and I don't have like a whole list of clients at, you know, any given time and, you know, always pitching for something else. To be honest, at this stage in my life, that sounds quite exhausting for me, Steve.
So, you know, I do have that fear that, oh my goodness, I ha I have it regularly. What happens if this, you know, this is the last project with them and they say, Katie, thanks very much. goodbye. But. I try and, you know, I try and think, okay, you know, build my emergency fund and I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Keep my feelers out, keep doing LinkedIn, but I'm not killing myself on the marketing front.
[00:10:32] Steve Folland: Interesting though, because you say you're not killing yourself on the marketing front, which is great. Because to me, when I see you, I think okay, you have built a very solid sort of foundation of, of marketing, of the feelers and things. One of which was at some point along the line, writing a book about market, like positioning yourself as an expert, helping people with their market research. So at what point did that happen?
[00:11:00] Katie Tucker: Yes. Well that actually, that coincided with that year of, coming back from the trip and COVID and there was a publisher, Practical Inspiration Publishing. She runs like, a business book challenge like twice a year, basically just to kind of hone in on a, on your proposal ready to send to publishers.
There's a winner at the end of that, challenge and I didn't win. I didn't win the challenge. And I realised at the end when I didn't win it, it gave me something to focus on. First of all, Steve and I was, I had a book in me and I thought, oh, I've always wanted to write a book. You know, I studied journalism, you know, I love writing.
You know, I haven't got anything else to do right now apart from like stay at home and entertain the, the kids and everything. So I'll, I'll give this a go. And I wanted to do a book about product management and everyone in the group, 'cause you know, you kind of talk about it with other aspiring authors and everyone's like, oh yeah, product management, like, yeah, yeah. Okay. And I was trying to explain what it was, and everyone was just like couldn't quite get it.
So I was like, okay. Right. What is it about product management that I need to extract here that actually people understand, and I don't like the word market research, Steve, even though that's my, you know, that's my bread and butter, because I think it just sounds so boring.
You know? It sounds so like, oh God, here we go. Market Research, clipboard. But when I started shifting it to that, everyone was like, oh yeah, okay. I understand what you're, what you're trying to write about here. Which is, you know, ironic because you have to speak your customer's language and if that's what they're saying, whether you like it or not.
And so the, the proposal shifted from, you know, I dunno, a product manager this or that, to understanding customers to market research. And at the end of it, I didn't get the, the deal, but she did come back to me quite quickly afterwards and said, Katie, I really like your proposal, but when I Google you, there's nothing there. Do you know what I mean like.. You haven't got a brand, you don't have a newsletter. If you do all the things that you say you're doing your proposal around the marketing, you know, build a following and then come back to me and let's discuss giving you a traditional deal. So that kind of was a motivator to be like, right, okay, I'm gonna do this.
Like, I'm gonna get my newsletter up and running, start being more consistent on Instagram with smaller businesses. And then in the end, I just kept going, kept bugging her and. She said yes, and she said like, yeah, I'll give you a deal. And then that's when the Do Penguins Eat Peaches came about, which, you know, I was absolutely thrilled.
Took a while to, well, a while to write... Some authors seem to write quicker than me, but depends, they might not have as many responsibilities. Yeah, that was a big, a big moment for me personally because that was a big goal, but also, you know, I really had something to say and I really wanted to share it, and, and help smaller, smaller businesses and kind of extract all the tools and processes they use in big business to help you know, freelancers and solo businesses because they don't always know how to do that bit well, and there's a lot riding on getting it right when there's only you in a business. So, that was my kind of key driver and it was, yeah, it was a great, yeah, I'm really happy. I'm really happy with it.
[00:14:07] Steve Folland: I love the fact that actually the getting the book published meant you went back then and built up
[00:14:14] Katie Tucker: Yes.
[00:14:14] Steve Folland: kind of like your brand, that helped it so well. When did that book come out?
[00:14:20] Katie Tucker: So that came out in end of 2023.
[00:14:23] Steve Folland: Have you noticed a difference in, well, it's kind of a two-pronged lazy question of mine because, 'cause it could be that there was a difference in building up your brand in the first place, but then and a difference for when, when that book came out.
[00:14:38] Katie Tucker: Yes. I think it really helped, get me started and kind of, you know, hone in on one particular message around understanding the customer. I think what I've struggled with is. Serving two client bases effectively that speak two different languages. So, you know, corporate clients, like the client I have now, would not respond necessarily to the same, 'you need to understand your customer, or this is how you do..'. Yeah, they, they kind of know that, that you need to talk a different type of language.
So I've struggled sometimes to know how to position myself, you know, across both like smaller businesses and.... I think the book has helped bridge that gap in a way, because I try to write it, and I think you've, you've read it, Steve, but I try to, in the introduction, make it clear that this is about helping businesses who don't necessarily have the budgets, the teams, the tools, or the knowhow, but it's equally a reminder for those who have.
And should probably still be doing a better job than they're doing now. So I didn't wanna exclude anyone. I think that's sometimes difficult. Like you, sometimes you have to be quite ruthless with a book and say, this is my target audience and I don't care if this isn't gonna, if product managers aren't gonna read it or, and I've struggled with that.
I think. and maybe that's why I haven't marketed it, as consistently, I suppose, as I could have done. 'Cause I'm, I'm thinking, oh, I wanna get, you know, if I wanted to get a corporate client as my foundation piece, how do I pitch the book if I say, oh, but you know, I've written a book. Oh, but it's not for you, it's for small businesses. So sometimes I struggle a little bit with that. Maybe that's just an internal, in my head struggle and everyone else doesn't really care.
[00:16:18] Steve Folland: I was gonna ask about that though, because there is that, you know, you are helping this audience with a book, but also you are getting corporate clients at a different stage, different language that they're using.
Even the fact that you don't want to use the word market research and would probably use perhaps a different term with them. Does that mean that the book has bought you clients that you didn't actually have a service to give. If you, as in maybe people are asking you to work with them when in fact normally you are working with larger corporates?
[00:16:56] Katie Tucker: Yeah, I think, before the book, I had some smaller business offers that I had, like a discovery call and then like a, you know, survey creation, customer interview creation, questions and things like that. And one-to-one type model. And I was, I think I was pricing it wrong and it was taking me a lot of, you know, work and effort to do because, you know, I really like to do things to a really good standard.
And, you know, if you're only charging £99 and you're spending, you know, multiple days on it to, you know, to really do something, you're thinking this is, something's not right here. And there's a startup that came back to me and said, 'Katie like, this is excellent, what you've done'. Like, you know, they literally pivoted their business 'cause they realized that they were barking up the wrong tree early enough not to, you know, lose too much money.
And he said like, 'you, you can't be charging like what you're charging. It's too, you know, it's not enough'. So, then I had the book and everything, so I kind of stopped. I didn't market the one-to-ones anymore. I have reintroduced it since the book. 'cause I do have people coming through, mainly from things like Enterprise Nation where I'm a member, and advisor saying, you know, I want to launch a clothes brand in the women's market and I'd like a bit of help. So I have now, I think, priced it fairly where there's a lot of value to the person, you know, coming to these, sessions. But also I can, you know, really provide value in return.
I feel like I'm in a good place, in terms of I know where I wanna be, like, okay, this is my, corporate offer, but I do wanna have something for the smaller or medium sized businesses. And I'm slowly kind of building that up in parallel. And I think the book's given me maybe permission for myself and also the authority, I think to do that. I dunno if that answers your question, Steve.
[00:18:44] Steve Folland: And you, you have a business name, don't you? Do, do you trade as a business name and your own name or?
[00:18:52] Katie Tucker: So my business is called Product Jungle, which, you know, at the time, the 'Product' came from, like the product management and all of that kind of stuff. Everyone always says, oh, project management. Which it's like, no, it's product management. But anyway, that's... and I only recently became a limited company. It's actually working out better for me from a cash flow perspective, Steve, having the separate accounts, having money coming into one, paying myself, it's just making it easier. And I don't seem to be, you know, I haven't dipped into my savings ... mainly because a client will pay three, you know, to put the invoice in. It's a big company. They'll pay, you know, three weeks down the line or four weeks, and sometimes that didn't always work out and I had to take some money out of savings or the tax savings and then put it back and then you miss the interest for that month.
And it was just like I, but now I feel that things, and it's the same money, like I'm more or less getting the same money, but having them separate and just doing things a bit differently is meaning that I feel all of a sudden a bit more financially secure.
So yeah, I am a limited company now and Product Jungle is the name.
[00:19:57] Steve Folland: And your email. Is Jungle Juice?
[00:20:02] Katie Tucker: Yeah. My newsletter is, Jungle Juice. So I've been writing that. That was one of the first things I did actually for them, you know, to get build up that credibility for the publisher was launch Jungle Juice initially on Squarespace, and then I moved it recently to Substack where everyone seems to be now hanging out.
Yeah, so that's like a weekly email and I've been really consistent with that Steve. I think I'm proud of that one because it's a lot of work to, to write something on a, a weekly basis. But yeah, I really, you know, I enjoy writing it and it's all about, you know, it is about understanding your customers, but I try to do it in a way that's a bit more, you know, entertaining or shows the business side as well, or more of a personal element. I'm not afraid to show some ankle, as they say, like in my newsletters. That's the kind of thing that I like to read, so that's what I put out there as well.
[00:20:58] Steve Folland: Yeah, it does feel like it's a great email by the way, but those stories that you put in, it's clear that you are an expert. But there's a lot of personality that comes across as well. Have you found that helps you?
[00:21:13] Katie Tucker: You know, getting into your forties, Steve? I think there's a point where. You kind of just like, I'm trying to figure out what's easy for me, what's easy, but also valuable. And that often is just being my, just being myself, you know?
And you know, I like to share beyond just, oh, 'here's five tips to do better surveys'. Because I think, you know, it lands better. You could connect better with someone if you can see a little bit of the personality behind and yeah, I think it's, it, it works. I've, you know, I've had a, got a lot of good feedback on the newsletter and also on the book.
'Cause that's kind of my style of writing, which is quite, personal I'd say, but also informative. And I think, yeah, it's a good place to, to land, especially with business books. You know, a lot of people who write business books might not be, you know, great writers or enjoy writing that much, but they've still got something quite valuable to say.
And I think, you know, because I did train or like I, you know, I studied journalism, so I did do a lot of writing. And I think combining that and trying to find like a unique, my unique voice I think has been, yeah, I think it's a, it's a strength of mine and hopefully attracts the right people to me.
[00:22:31] Steve Folland: So is that the main way you, you put yourself out there? You've the email, the book. LinkedIn.
[00:22:37] Katie Tucker: LinkedIn, yeah. And Instagram. you know, I've tried so many times to really get into Instagram and I, and you know, before I got the book deal and during I was writing it, I did post more. You know, I don't have a huge following on, on Instagram.
I just find it at this point, I just don't have the bandwidth and I'd love to be able to be consistent on Instagram, and I'm sure that it would bring me more book sales from smaller businesses. And I've beat myself up plenty about that, Steve, over the last, you know, 18 months since the book came out.
But I just, I have to be realistic. Like I've had, you know, I had a really tricky year last year. I had one of my children who was out of school for the whole year, and there's only so much you can do, you know? And I think freelance life brings you that flexibility, but it also forces you to make choices on like what's really important right now in your life.
And I was like, that's something that I can't, I can do the newsletter, I can carry on with my client work. But I can't do much else. And that means, you know, not, doing on Instagram. I'm still not quite at peace with that. You know, I'd love to, to be able to do more there. And there's loads of people out there that can help, but I've, you know, I know what needs to be done.
I just don't have the bandwidth there at the moment to do it. And if it's, if you think about it from a purely like commercial sense, then that probably is a lower priority in the long run, at this stage. And I have to be kind of okay with that. 'cause I don't wanna just start and then, you know, disappear for another week and, and that's how it's been basically my Instagram relationship.
Maybe I just need to not try and for all my posts to be spot on or perfect. Maybe there's a bit of perfectionism there, Steve. I dunno. But, at the moment it is LinkedIn, which a lot of people think, oh my god, that's so boring. And I'm trying to bring a bit of sparkle over there on the LinkedIn front.
And you do as well, Steve, you know, it doesn't have to be a, a boring square place, LinkedIn. There's lots of people, with multiple hats, you know, that, that are on there. And I think it can be a good place for connections too. But yeah, that's the main, the moment, is the, the newsletter. I've also got another newsletter, Steve, that I've created, which is more on the other things I'd like to work on called Broken Fish Fingers, which is about, you know, parenting neurodivergent children and like just exploring that space a bit more. And that's something that's pulling at me at the moment.
I think a lot of parents who find themselves sometimes in these positions do end up somehow down the line making an impact in that space, or at least trying to, whether it's from the advocate route and things like that. So that's something bubbling up in my mind at the moment to, to explore more when I have time.
[00:25:33] Steve Folland: Yeah. Well, I mean, hats off to you for putting boundaries
[00:25:38] Katie Tucker: Yeah.
[00:25:38] Steve Folland: in place, or the expectations, perhaps that's not easy to do, but it sounds like the last year was challenging.
[00:25:47] Katie Tucker: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:47] Steve Folland: How did you balance... you know, you don't have to go into lots of detail about it, but how do you balance the home responsibilities and your own work responsibilities and those ambitions?
Is it a case of just thinking back burner some of that stuff or?
[00:26:05] Katie Tucker: It's a constant, discussion I have with myself, but yes, I think what last year taught me was that... if I wanna do a good job, like what's the most important thing at that stage was making sure that my child was, was okay and that, I was, you know, fighting for a lot of things for her.
The foundation work, so with the, the main corporate client kept me going financially so I could support them for the one or two days a week and still be okay financially. So that was kind of a big. Yeah, at some point I was like, okay, please don't, you know, cancel me now because then I'll really be in the shit, Steve. But, that kept going and then it forced me to make those choices that I, you know, and I am an ambitious person or I'm quite creative and I have lots of ideas and so I had to say intentionally I think is important for me.
I had to like, not just let it happen, but say Katie, you cannot do all of this, so you are not gonna do this. And now you've made that decision. It's not forever. This is a chapter in your life and you can pick it up again when things, when you start feel like you're, you know, treading water again. And not swimming, manically like against the tide.
So I'm getting better at that. As long as I park it intentionally, then I can come back to it instead of just like life just rolling on and you're like, oh, I should be doing this. You know? It takes up a lot of brain space if you don't, I think if you don't make those decisions, intentionally.
I think the other thing is that I do have a coworking space, Steve, and that has been really important for me, and I've kept that as much as I can. You know, and I can come here... During the book I actually had a, a dedicated desk, which meant I could come at the weekends as well, so I could get that writing done. Now I've just got like the membership of, come in, you know, every day, between half eight and I think it's five 30. And that helps me create that boundary.
Like I do have a desk at home, but I try and do my client work here if I need an extra half a day, sometimes I'll do it at home. 'cause my child isn't yet in any full-time education. She's doing like a little bit here, a little bit there. So there's a lot of taking and, dropping off. And it's not a full school day.
So me and my partner, he's also a contractor and yeah, we make it work. Like we've got calendar on the fridge and lots of different colors and yeah, we make it work. And we also have a, a nearly 16-year-old who, you know, just gone through GCSEs as well, you know, different needs. I've got quite a big age gap with my kids, so I think it's, you know, it's really important to....
And I was just talking about it actually with my partner the other day saying, actually this has worked out really well, like being contractors and freelancers because you know, we could be working every day, coming back at five six. Like we're connecting with our kids like a lot, lot more just by being around, you know, being around.
And you know, teenagers, Steve, they're not that chatty, but they can be. And sometimes, you know, if you're at the right place at the right time, the more you're there, the more likely you are to kind of build those... So I think that those are all really important wins for me at this stage.
Yes, I get frustrated, Steve, that I don't, I can't do a full day every day. You know, I've got plenty that I could do. Like, I don't, I'm not bored. I'm not bored. It's not a lack of ideas, but...
And then sometimes I take myself away, Steve as well. Like, I'll go to my mum's for a week or a long weekend somewhere, and sometimes just three days by myself just to kind of get my thoughts in place, get my loose plan as I like to say together. Then I'm off again. That's all I need, like recharge my batteries without a demanding family life.
[00:29:45] Steve Folland: Is that resetting yourself as an, as well as the business or are you...
[00:29:50] Katie Tucker: Yeah. Both
[00:29:51] Steve Folland: On the..
[00:29:51] Katie Tucker: Yeah, I think that's difficult to disassociate, I think, especially when you run your own show, I think. It's easy for everything, to get like, you know, a bit mixed up and merged.
But yeah, like I always, if I, if I do have a bit that solo time, it'll be probably both. Like I'll think about things that I need to sort out, you know, whether it's for my, my kids, the house, that kind of stuff, financial planning, but then also business. I always, and that sometimes that's all I, all I need, I think.
So it's easy to get overwhelmed, and not everyone has the privilege to be able to do that and just leave caring responsibilities. But when I can, I, I need it. And I do. Because, you know, I have burnt out in the past, not necessarily knowing it at the time by doing too much or trying to be, you know, everything to everyone and I don't wanna get to that position again.
So I, I'm more mindful these days, of my bandwidth, which unfortunately, you know, I'm not a machine, even though I'd love to just plug myself in and like, you know, ready to go again. But the reality is no. You know, the better I feel, the better everything else tends to go anyway.
[00:31:03] Steve Folland: With that limited bandwidth and you positioning yourself as an expert, as a consultant, does that mean you've, you've worked on your pricing to mean that, I don't know, well, let's say you don't, you don't have to work every day with five clients, for example?
[00:32:41] Katie Tucker: Absolutely Steve. I have worked on my pricing. So when I first started out I did have like a business coach and I didn't have, I wasn't having any money coming in, but she was offering this deal for like six sessions and I went with it and it really helped me start with that kind of what's my, what am I going into this price per day? 'cause it's kind of daily rates and that was around, I think it was like £550 or £650 at the time, a day.
Which you know, I felt quite uncomfortable at the time. I was like, oh my God, you know, that's, you know, that's a lot of money for like a day. And and I've gradually increased that number Steve, over the last, you know, three or four years.
I've only gone up like I think once or twice with my client, and now I'm at a comfortable day rate, Steve, where yeah, I can just work two days or two and a half and it still allows me to pay the mortgage and pay the bills and, you know, not live a life of complete luxury in London because you need to be earning loads for that, but yeah, I'm happy with that.
And that has been probably based on that corporate expertise that I've had. Mm, if I was just serving a smaller business audience, I would have to work, you know, longer hours and hustle more. And that's not something that I'm in a position to, to do at the moment. So, yeah, pricing has really helped.
Hasn't come easy though, like saying, you know, this is what I'm worth. I always think, oh my goodness, like that's, that's a lot of money, you know, for a day. And then I have people say back to me. This is, you know, they don't have to pay anything like on you, you know, they can cut you when they want and you know, you are paying for, you're putting into your own pension.
The holidays aren't paid, there's no sick pay, all of that kind of stuff, you know, and it's just a business transaction. And if you put it that way, it's actually a fair rate for my experience, you know?
[00:34:38] Steve Folland: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the value you bring when they're bigger organisations.
[00:34:43] Katie Tucker: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:34:45] Steve Folland: Because you did that course, didn't you? And you worked with a coach then, at a similar sort of time. Have you done anything since?
[00:34:52] Katie Tucker: The last course I did was, a great course with a lady called, penny, and she does, sales for freelancers. I dunno if you've heard of a Penny Blackmore. and I did her course, I think that was end of last year, which was like, I think it was six sessions and that was about honing in a bit better on my product offering.
Like what is it that I offer as a consultant, you know, what's that one liner? To position myself, what is it that I could provide beyond just the consulting that I do at the moment? I'd like to also be able to have like a particular training course for like a marketing team or product team on understanding your customers, which is kind of, that was supplement the kind of consultancy which is more kind of bespoke.
So kind of some off the shelf things that I could develop. That really helped me. and I do do that. I do, you know, every so often, every 18 months just find someone and I think, oh, that really is what I need right now. I need some guidance and help on this. I haven't implemented everything obviously, but... I've done the thinking part.
[00:35:57] Steve Folland: Mm. Have you done your own, your own market research for your own business?
[00:36:04] Katie Tucker: Yeah, so, I do it on a kind of a regular basis. So for the small businesses, I did it quite a bit as I was writing the book. So I'd spoke to a lot of solo founders, freelancers, and did some like like one-off workshops and training courses.
Got feedback after that. Spoke to people, did little mini interviews with them as well. So got a good understanding of the smaller business. And then for the corporates, I did do, more recently I did like, tried to get into like marketing teams to support them with like training. So I did speak to like four or five Heads of Marketing, some that I know, some people who've introduced me to them. Just to understand like how they go about selecting an external party to come in. You know, because we're training, there's lots of big companies out there doing training for marketing teams. So why would you choose... how would you go about choosing?
Would it be by someone you know, someone who recommends you? So kind of try to explore the buying process. I think that's what's important to understand if you are servicing, you know, if you're freelance and you wanna work for corporates is like, how do they buy, you know, when do they identify the need?
When do they get the budget? When do they have to put the plan in for the CEO or for finance to say, okay, next year we're thinking of doing three training courses. probably gonna cost about X amount. They don't have to have everything tied up, but you need to understand that process, before you can start playing in that field. Because otherwise you'll, you know, you'll hit them at the wrong time and they'll say, oh, maybe next year our budget's already all sorted for this year. Thanks very much.
So you need to start understanding those cycles. So I did a bit of research on, on that, that was really useful as well. So I do, and I do a lot of online, research, where necessary as well. Like, I, I always keep an eye on like trends in B2B. Trends in B2C and then I try and use, in the past I've used Substack, like the poll feature sometimes to just throw out a few questions here and there, just like learning a little bit on the go.
Probably could always do more, but I've actually got like once a quarter I block out a bit of time to just at least think about it. Do I need to research anything at this point or, is everything good?
[00:38:17] Steve Folland: It sounds like you carve out time to get more strategic, be it taking literal time away or quarterly.
[00:38:25] Katie Tucker: Yeah, no, definitely. I think that's really... that's what I haven't always done well, and I think it just helps me so much to know that I have that window of time and calendars can get booked up. So I always say to people like, literally, open your calendar today. In two months time, your calendar is highly likely to be free. Or they have some free spaces.
And then, you know, book yourself half a day in a coworking space or make sure you don't have any kids around and even if you just have like two, three hours just to, just to think. I just feel like. You know, especially if you are a parent and you're running your own business, it's a lot, you know, there's not much time to think, unless you literally make it happen.
Make the thinking time happen and you have to put those boundaries into say, right, actually I need to stop like for half a day and just think about what's next. Yeah, I do do that.
[00:39:27] Steve Folland: When you were doing your own market research with freelancers, solopreneurs, I'm just wondering if there was anything that came up, you know, like people listening to it now where you spotted regular mistakes. Or mistakes, maybe the wrong word. Maybe missed opportunities. Like Yeah. Easy fixes where you thought, oh folk, this is why I'm writing this book. This would help you.
[00:39:51] Katie Tucker: Yeah. There's one big one, which is... small businesses would say, 'but I did ask them if they wanted this, and they said yes'. You know, like, oh, I'm thinking of doing, like creating retreats for writers, in the Cotswolds, what do you think? You know, thumbs up on Instagram, yes or no? Do, do you like the idea?
And then people would be like, yes, or whatever. And then go away and beaver away at creating this thing, whether it's an event or a new product. And then basically when they launch it, no one buys it. So they're like, well, I, but I asked them, you know, I did my market research, I asked them.
And I suppose that's the biggest one is like, you know, especially when you're a small business, a lot of your community, no doubt on Instagram, you know, they like you. You know, they're probably gonna say yes because they can say yes. There's no... they don't care like the output. They don't, they don't have to, they're not signing a contract. They don't have to buy it when you do actually launch it.
So what I say is like, don't ask people whether they are interested in your new product idea or your new business idea, and then take what they say as the green light to go all in.
What you need to do is like, explore. The behavior that you want to see. So for example, if we're talking about retreats, instead of asking people, oh, I'm thinking of doing this retreat in the Cotswolds for writers for two days, will you come, would you be interested? Talk about what retreats have you done? Have you been on any retreats in the last 12 to 18 months? You know, it could be any kind of retreat. Doesn't necessarily, you know, have you, you know, do you work in a coworking space?
Or what are all the little pieces of evidence? That would lead you to somebody potentially being a good fit for your offer. And people, you know, they can be, we can all be whoever we want in the future, steve, do you know what I mean?
Like, oh, you know, we're gonna do a new supplement brand, would you take it? Oh yeah, I'm really healthy. I'll do that, I'll do that. But in the future, the future doesn't exist. But if you look at past behavior, that's where you're gonna find the real clues as to whether someone is likely, you know, whether you're doing a subscription package.
Just ask them what subscriptions you currently pay for. Like, is that a habit that you have in your life? Do you know what I mean? Whether it's, okay, you know, you've got the obvious ones like Netflix, but you get a food box or a beer box, or you know, you get a magazine sent to you regularly. Because if somebody has none of that and then you are launching a subscription box for your like, you know, hand squished candles and like lovely little jams, you know, they might, I'm not saying there's no exception to the rule. But if there's no evidence in past behavior that this would be someone who would, who would buy this...
So dig deeper basically, or be smart about the questions. Look for the behaviors that you want to see. Ask questions about that. Don't just ask them what they'd do in the future.
Are you interested? Oh, would you, do you think you'd buy this? Because most people wanna be supportive. I mean, you'll, you'll get the odd person really, really honest who'll say, no, sorry, I'm not interested. But most people, especially in small business community networks, they wanna be nice. You wanna be supportive, so they're probably gonna say yes, and then you launch the course and then no one comes.
Does that make sense, Steve?
Steve Folland: Yeah, it does. Now if you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance, what would that be?
[00:47:37] Katie Tucker: I'm gonna have to say two things. One is that you can change your mind if you want.
I feel like sometimes everyone wears their freelance status, like a badge of honor. And it is hard and I understand, but at the same time, if push comes to shove and you need to get a job for six months or a job alongside it, like a salary job, that's fine.
It's not always one or the other. It can be a mix and it's not any type of failure. If freelance doesn't work out and you do something else and then you come back to it, I don't think, I think that's what I would say. You'd have to go, you know, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.
And the second thing would be start building an emergency fund fund as soon as possible.
Like for, I think that's probably the underlying anxiety of being freelance is the lack of guarantee around that money coming in every month. And now I've kind of in a position where I can build up an emergency fund. I think it just gives you a bit more peace of mind. And lets you ride the, you know, maybe the slower months with less, (
Deep intake of breath)
you know?
[00:48:49] Steve Folland: Katie, it's so good to talk to you. Go to beingfreelance.com as there are for all of our guests, there are links through so that you can find Katie online.
Make sure you sign up to her newsletter because all of us are running businesses and you could do with her advice and they're just a pleasure to read.
So go get that. And we loved the book, Do Penguins Eat Peaches in the Being Freelance Book Club, which was part of the Being Freelance Community. Go on. You need to sell it more. It's such a good book.
[00:49:16] Katie Tucker: I need to sell it more. It's, I know I do. Yeah, I really do. It deserves it. because it is...
[00:49:21] Steve Folland: There's so many bad business books. Get that one out there.
[00:49:23] Katie Tucker: Yeah. Okay. This is, this is it. This is it.
[00:49:26] Steve Folland: Brilliant. Katie, thank you so much and all the best being freelance.
[00:49:31] Katie Tucker: Thank you so much.
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