Live Illustrator Katie Chappell
About this podcast episode…
LIVE ILLUSTRATOR KATIE CHAPPELL
After being sacked from a graphic design job, Katie slowly built a freelance illustration career. Taking her time building a following, experience and confidence.
Things really took off during the pandemic, when Katie adapted quickly to online events and found herself booked solid. At one point, she scaled the business into an agency-style setup with salaried staff and 24 illustrators on the books.
On paper, it looked amazing.
In reality, it nearly broke her.
In this episode, Katie talks honestly about scaling up, scaling back, pricing, niching, marketing, work-life balance, and the moment she realised something had to change.
We also get into the practical stuff: working with a virtual assistant, setting clear prices, and why “make work, share work” is still the foundation of her marketing.
Katie also sails the internet as part of The Good Ship Illustration - an education and community space for illustrators, that she founded with two of her friends in Berwick-upon-Tweed. If you enjoy Katie on here, do check out The Good Ship Illustration podcast!
Available as a video podcast too - Watch here on the site, on YouTube, or Spotify.
Read a full transcript & get Links in the tabs.
More from KATIE CHAPPELL
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and Live Illustrator Katie Chappell.
Steve Folland: Let’s find out what it's like being freelance for live illustrator, Katie Chapell. Hey Katie!
Katie Chappell: Hey. Hello Steve. Thank you for having me.
Steve Folland: As ever how about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?
Katie Chappell: Okay, good question. So I, I've been officially freelance on paper since 2010, I think. But I was still studying for two years, so I didn't properly kick it off until 2012. and I'd actually been sacked from my graphic design job, so it was a good start.
I was like, pushed into it. and in that moment I was like, you know what? Working for other people. Not for me. I would much rather, even if it's scary and there's lots of risks and everything, I'd much rather it be my problem than some random person telling me what to do.
Steve Folland: So were you trained in illustration or graphic design or 'cause you were working as a graphic designer?
Katie Chappell: I was, yeah, I did illustration and graphic design as like a combined degree at Sunderland Uni. And then, yeah, I was working at a marketing agency in Sunderland. But really like illustration was the thing that I wanted to do and what I got really excited about. But it just felt like graphic design was the thing that had a job at the end. It's like a much easier thing to find job in there.
Steve Folland: Yes. And had you got any freelance work on the side or was it. I've lost that job. I'm now just going to go alone. Was there a bridge or?
Katie Chappell: Yeah, there was a bridge. So I started doing freelance bits, I was teaching guitar before I even went to uni, so I was freelance doing that on the side of everything else.
And then, yeah, I'd get the odd job. I remember there was, one of my friends did a psychology thing about tattoos and then they did illustrations of people with some tattoos, people with loads of tattoos. So that was one of my first ever paid jobs. Which kinda kicked things off and I was doing little bits and pieces for random newspapers that needed layout design and I worked for a card company.
So yeah, it wasn't like off at the deep end into freelance. It was more like I'd been easing into it gently, but then I suddenly was like, okay, we need to take this seriously now.
Steve Folland: So how did you go about that? How were you getting your clients?
Katie Chappell: I'll be honest, I sucked at first. Like really, I always had another job.
I was working in Lush selling bath bombs mostly. That was my main job. So I'd work there four days a week and then three days a week I'd be freelancing. I had a hot desk in a studio. I think it was 12 pounds a week or a month. It was really cheap. Yeah. I was like, wow, so good. I had no idea how good it was.
I was like, this is so expensive. Like what? And yeah, I didn't really know about marketing yet. And that was a big thing. 'cause if you don't know, you don't know. And I was just like, you just get jobs if you're really good at what you do. And if you do a really good job, magically jobs will arrive. And that to some extent, obviously doing a good job does work like that a bit.
'cause word of mouth and people recommend you. And if you get, like I think I've got one illustration job in Newcastle Uni and then got loads of jobs off the back of that. 'cause academics all talk to each other. But yeah, I wasn't really hot on the old marketing front until I pretty much, I didn't give up. I like, just thought, you know what? This is too hard. I can't do working seven days a week, with the retail and the freelancing. So I packed it all in and became a nanny and went around... I was in Italy to start with, and then I was in Germany working for different families. And I always kept a sketchbook going in that time, but I was like, you know what? Freelancing is too hard. I can't make it work, nevermind, I'll just look after kids instead.
Steve Folland: Wow. With your guitar still in tow, like Maria Von Trapp?.
Katie Chappell: Yeah, I think I sacked off the guitar as well by that point, but yeah, that was a good way to I dunno, really realize that I did want to do it and I missed it.
Steve Folland: Gotcha. Okay. So actually looking after other people's kids made you think No, actually I did like drawing.
Katie Chappell: Yes, exactly.
Steve Folland: So how long did you do that? How long was that break for and was it a proper break or were you just doing stuff remotely?
Katie Chappell: It was five years and I was doing stuff remotely, but it wasn't enough like sprinkling of income to be anything.
Like I think I looked back on my tax returns and it was like 600 pounds for a whole year and 1000 pounds. Which, yeah, it wasn't brilliant, but it was better than nothing and it meant I kept my hand in. But yeah, it was five years and I saved up all my nanny money, left my final nanny job. I went to Thailand and Southeast Asia backpacking with all my nanny money.
And I was like, this is cool. And I started doing a hundred day project where I drew every single day and shared it on Instagram. And that really got me into the habit of making work and sharing work. 'cause that was something that I'd been really sporadic with before. And it was so good to just make stuff that wasn't specifically like... I was just doing it for myself and it was fun 'cause I was traveling.
But I think that helped to kinda firstly grow my portfolio because I was making loads of new work. Secondly, grow my following a wee bit. I had like less than 2000 followers in them days. Now I tell people when they ask for like career advice, I'm like make work, share work, and it sounds so overly simplistic, but at the end of the day, like that is what marketing is.
Here's what I do. I do this thing, look at the thing, and doing it again and again. It can feel so repetitive 'cause we're so sensitive to sharing our own work. And that's something that I really had to get over.
Steve Folland: So you are in Thailand, so that's like a traveling experience this time.
Katie Chappell: Yeah.
Steve Folland: But you're doing this 100 day project. So what year is this?
Katie Chappell: This'll be 2015. It was 16. Very early 2016. And Okay. All my friends were getting married, so I was like, I'm gonna have to go home and go all these weddings, whatever. So I went home and while I was there I thought, you know what I, still really wanna be an illustrator.
Like maybe if I do a Master's. That will be the magical piece of paper that gets me to be a real illustrator that like makes a living from it. And in hindsight I'm like, what was I thinking? But there's something about the psychology of taking it seriously and being like, no. Like I really, I'm 27, I'm so old.
Like I've gotta, we're gonna do it now. and I really put everything into it. Like I did this Master's degree at Edinburgh College of Art. Went like headfirst into illustration and also was thinking more with a commercial brain as well. Whereas when I'd done my undergrad, I was just like, this is cool. I love drawing.
And I hadn't thought about like, how will I pay my rent? So it was good to go in with that lens of real life and knowing how much life cost, the price of cheese shocked me when I left home, like that sort of thing, like Yeah, if you're looking at £3.50 for a good block of cheddar.
We eat a lot of cheese, so we've gotta be thinking about that when pricing and things.
Steve Folland: So, see, so what, 2016 you do an MA off the back of that, did you then say, that's it. I'm a Freelance Illustrator, this is what I do. Let's bring in the cheese money.
Katie Chappell: Yeah, exactly. I wish it was that like, 'and then everything was fine', but you know how real life goes. So while I was doing that, MA, I discovered graphic recording and live illustration.
And I was like, huh, interesting. This is a whole thing that I had never heard of before. 'cause I was initially really interested in war artists and like people taking their sketchbooks and paper to the front line and drawing what was going on. And my good friend Nikki Groom had been to the Calais Jungle and drawing what was around her.
And I was like, that's amazing. Just like recording on the spot. What is going on in a way that like, 'cause photos are amazing, but there's something about illustrations and paintings that just communicate so much more. But I didn't wanna go to a war zone. And I was like, it's not really my scene. But then I discovered graphic recording, which is like the war artist thing, but in a boardroom.
'cause you're drawing what they're talking about live. You're capturing the essence of what's going on. It's fast and it's a little bit scary. And I was like, I'd love to try that. And while I was studying an opportunity in the uni came up for, they were doing a sustainability event and I was like. I will try.
I've never done it, but I've been reading about it and it seems cool and I've done like live portraits and stuff, so I tried it and loved it and from then I was like, okay, maybe this is what I wanna do, actually.
Yeah.
Steve Folland: There's still been the bridge into, or not the bridge at this point. The jump into then making it your job.
Yeah. So you've figured out maybe make work, share work is a good plan.
Katie Chappell: Exactly. Make work, share work, but get photos of you doing the work. Put the photos online.
Steve Folland: So yeah. So what did you do? How did you go? And you've also hit upon a niche of sorts, as in, within the field of illustration. So yeah. How did it evolve? This 2016 or 2017?
Katie Chappell: It's still 2016 at this point, right? So I became a lecturer in illustration, which was another dream, 'cause I was like, that would be so cool to be able to teach people. And now, because I had a Master's I could, so I was lecturing, it was very part-time, like one or two days a week max, doing evening things in summer schools and stuff.
And I took on another nanny job 'cause I was like, I know how to do that. I know it can pay my rent. So while I was doing those two things, I was also trying to build up the live illustration thing. And I was very conscious of like always having many baskets and many backup plans. 'cause I was so scared of, not having enough money, not making it work.
And honestly it took until maybe 2018, 2019 for things to really get going. So it was like one or two. And I did maths 17,18 like one or two years of really go on, we can make this work. And then in 2019 things were getting really busy and I was getting booked to the point where I couldn't really be a lecturer anymore.
'cause I was like, I. Oh, thank you for that inquiry. I'm actually at university that day, or I'm actually supposed to be like picking somebody's kids up from school. So I think I canceled a couple of things and was like, okay, I can't keep doing this. I'm gonna have to really go into the live illustration thing properly and just suck it up, be scared, do it anyway, so I quit my lecturer job, quit my nanny job.
2020 arrived. So I had all these bookings for 2020, and then on the 16th of March. Everything got canceled, which was a little bit scary 'cause I'd been I will not give up my other jobs. And then I had, so this, there's this one week where my inbox was just like canceled. I've canceled the job, I've postponed it. Sorry, Katie!
And I was just like, what did I do? Like I'm such an idiot. How did I not predict this thing? yeah.
Steve Folland: And had you, quit the, lecturing job at that point?
Katie Chappell: I had and interesting actually, because of the pandemic. They walked to me and they were like, could you come back a little bit? And I was like, yes, I could like online.
'cause they needed remote teachers still.
Steve Folland: Yeah.
Katie Chappell: Weirdly, luckily, whatever fate and everything, a couple of months before we'd started setting up the Good Ship Illustration and in February we'd had the meeting where you properly go in, incorporate and make it a thing. And we'd planned to release our first course just as lockdown had been pretty much announced and maybe like a month later.
And at the time, I remember we had this chat where we were like, this is the worst time ever to launch something. People have just been told the world's shut down. What are we doing? Oh my goodness. But then we thought, we'll just. Do it anyway, see what happens. And it just so happened, obviously now in hindsight, everybody was home.
So it was the perfect time to release an online course 'cause people were needing anything to distract them from real life, have some creativity and talk to other people, have a community and things. So it worked out really well timing wise, but we did not plan that.
Steve Folland: So we should explain what the Good Ship Illustration is.
Yes. Because you said 'we'.
Katie Chappell: Yeah, we, so it's me and my two friends, Helen Stephens and Tania Willis. And we started in 2020 just as, lockdown kicked off. And we help illustrators and image makers navigate a creative career. We've got a podcast, we've got workshops. We do free things like audio drawing guides, and we also have online courses as well.
And yeah, that was, it actually worked out well because everything was canceled. I had a lot more time again. To devote to The Good Ship. And with anything, when you're starting out, it does take a lot of time and energy and let's get this going. and at the same time, back to the marketing thing, I put my marketing hat on and I was like, I know these big companies that I've been working for, like the NHS and I don't know different, I can't remember who I was working for... big brands.
I was like, they're still having meetings. There's no way that this has happened. And they've just thought, no meetings, guys. So I just tweaked my messaging and my website to say that I did online events. And also I threw myself headfirst into figuring out how to do online events, like how to share...
How to make it as, as useful as possible for clients so they could see the illustrations and make it just as good, if not better than being there in the room with them. And that is when things went bonkers because it'd been busy and a little bit good. And I was like, oh, I've got these bookings.
And then, things just went whoosh. And there was a point where I was. I was getting lots of inquiries every day, which was brilliant. But there was a day where I did five events in one day, and because it was online, I would just get up really early, log into that event and then, have a snack and then it'd be time for the next event and then go until like late in the night. 'cause I could do all the time zones. Wow. So yeah.
Steve Folland: Whoa. Okay, so lockdown happened in March. How long till that upward whoosh, that was an upward whoosh in case you heard the whoosh and weren't quite sure which direction it went.
Katie Chappell: Yeah, upward, woosh. I think it was summertime. the real upward whoosh and like probably into autumn. And then it was December where I got my studio. 'cause I was like, I can't keep doing this from home because I was like sitting at a dining chair at the dining table, hunched over like a prawn, like trying to do all these events. So I got an ergonomic chair and a studio outside of the house so that I didn't kill my husband.
And that worked out really well and it kept going as busy as that. But to be honest, it hasn't really stopped, which is mad. I just changed my pricing to slow things down and got a bit fussier.
Steve Folland: So really, it's not like people can recreate this situation because, let's hope we don't just suddenly have another lockdown.
No, but you, spotted an opportunity and you changed your messaging really quickly to say, this is what I do now, and people found you because you were ahead of anybody else offering it?
Katie Chappell: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And like even so now people, I see loads of people saying, oh, I offer remote illustration, because it's a thing.
But even working on an iPad when I started out was like really groundbreaking and I had to explain to clients the benefit of it being immediately digital and all that stuff. Because before that, everybody has been doing it on big boards and iPads. Like I realized this the other day, they didn't really exist for drawing on. That's how recent iPads are. So I feel like it was a combination of those things and just seeing what clients needed before they knew they needed it. And being like, I could help you.
Steve Folland: Yeah. But also back to The Good Ship Illustration. So equally you had put stuff in place unwittingly before anybody else would've suddenly started to think, oh, this is something we should be doing. So you were, you were ahead there as well.
Katie Chappell: Yeah. And I think we didn't know what was gonna happen and how people were gonna react because we'd, like Tania especially, was genuinely like, no, like this is not, it's not a good time. Stop stop stop. And she often says that a metaphor is me and Helen just chucked her in the boot and we're like, we're going and drove off with her in the boot of the car. But she's come around now. She's not in the boot of the car anymore,
Steve Folland: But, that has kept going since then. But you mentioned about setting up a company, I think with them.
Katie Chappell: Yeah. Yeah. So that, so The Good Ship Illustration is its own company, which is good 'cause it's, we've all got our own illustration thing going on.
Yeah. Which as well, I feel is important. 'cause when I was a traditional university lecturer, I could see lecturers that had been there a long time and I could see it's really comfy. They just kinda don't need to illustrate, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. And that's just how it's been for however long universities have existed.
But I didn't really want to slip into that thing of just not doing, like not walking the talk and not knowing what the industry is actually like. 'cause I feel as well, illustration as a traditional university subject. They did cover like commercial stuff and being a freelancer and here's how to write an invoice and stuff, but they never really went in because it's its own huge subject.
You'll know yourself, like you can't really teach it at uni, and it's almost a benefit that they don't because then if you leave uni with your art school head and then go on to learn about marketing, like you've got the best of both worlds. But yeah, for The Good Ship, I wanted to be able to help people do the creative bit and do the marketing and the business stuff without me being like, here's my portfolio from the eighties. But I had to, yeah.
Steve Folland: How did you go about, like working with, I presume, were they friends that you'd met?
Katie Chappell: Yeah, so they moved to Berwick and that's how we met.
Steve Folland: Oh, wow. Just out and about, or at a illustration thing?
Katie Chappell: Yeah, like we used to meet for coffee. We had, there's a weirdly large percentage of illustrators in Berwick and we'd all go for a coffee together and meet up at different people's houses and cafes and be chatting. And I think Helen was planning to make a course for years and mentioned this to Tania.
And then I separately mentioned to Tania, I was like, I'm really thinking of doing like a course or something. And she was like, you do, like guys, let's all do this together. Like much better than doing our own thing and I'm so glad that, that happened. 'cause there's something so much easier about doing stuff when you're not doing it alone.
Steve Folland: Did you like have to agree roles and things like that? Like how have you managed working on it together?
Katie Chappell: We did, like when we started out we made sure everything was like written down. But to be honest, I think we all work so well together that we kinda get into our roles anyway. And now as time goes on, we've built up a team.
So behind the scenes we've got Claire and Alice who help keep everything organized and help with marketing and stuff. So we can focus on the, like having ideas and deciding whether something is a good idea or a bad idea and, different plans like that without being bogged down with the admin side.
But yeah, it is something I think if you. if anybody was thinking of going into business with friends, I think that's a big important thing to think about. 'cause obviously everyone values the friendship before business and when money comes into it, it can get a bit, it could get a bit like tense, but it hasn't touch wood. Touch wood.
Steve Folland: It's been a while. So where are we now? Has anything changed what we haven't covered? How has it evolved is probably the right word, because some of that hasn't gone away. You're still doing online events, you've still got The Good Ship Illustration. So yeah, what's happened in those past five years or so?
Katie Chappell: Yeah, it's been like a, an interesting evolution. So I was doing live illustration as a freelancer and doing The Good Ship Illustration. Live illustration kept getting busier and busier. So I started working with a couple of friends, being like, can you help, can you do this job? if there's two bookings on one day, I'd send Bea one of my good friends to do the job and that worked really well.
And then in 2022 I had a baby. And that again, like just having Bea help out was brilliant. And then I did a British Library business incubator thing, and they were like, 'this is totally scalable! You should scale! Like you just need to have a bigger team and do more events!' And I was like, okay, cool. With a baby on my knee. that seems fine. Let's totally do that. Why not?
Steve Folland: That's not the voice I expected from the British Library,
Katie Chappell: That's how they talk. Yeah.
Steve Folland: Is it?
Katie Chappell: Buy Buy Buy, Sell Sell Sell. Bigger, So I was just like, cool. That sounds fine. easily do that with a child who's, like in past me me'sefense, my baby was a good sleeper and things, so it was fine.
And also I didn't really like having time off and weird like that. I was like, I do really wanna do work again.
Anyways, I scaled up. I got a team. I had three employees, like salaried employees doing ad-mini bits and organizing and helping me create content for the live illustration business.
I had 24 illustrators on the books to send to different events all over the world. And it's just as stressful as it sounds like. At the time I was like, on paper, this looks really cool and like amazing. But in my real life I felt bad 'cause my daughter was in nursery more than I wanted her to be. I didn't like having, I just felt like a full-time emailer.
And there was one day, like I was driving home from the studio and this thought crossed my mind. I was like, if I die, I wouldn't have to answer any emails. How good would that be?
And I was like, whoa, wait a minute. Like what? Yes, true. But also there's other ways to email less without having to die. So, that was really like a clear sign from my own brain to me. Like we need to scale it back, this is not working.
Steve Folland: So did you have, a business name? So it wasn't Katie Chapell Live Illustrator for example.
Katie Chappell: Yeah, it became Illustrated Live, so I rebranded, but actually I think that came later. But yeah, it was like separate from me, even though it was still Katie Chapell and it was, I made sure that behind the scenes, we'd assign the client and illustrator and be like, here's your illustrator for the event. It's not Katie, but that's okay.
And it, it did, it worked fine, to be honest. So we did some really cool events. There was a big cruise ship in Florida, like it had something sustainable about it that we did. But different jobs in like New York and Australia. It was crazy and exciting, but I just didn't, it wasn't sustainable.
And around the same time I got diagnosed with A DHD and I felt like that all the things at once, I was just like, this is too many things. I just want simplicity. And to be a freelancer again!
So late 2024, I was like, I'm only doing online events. I don't like having a big team. I've changed from having salaried employees to making them freelancers so that I could say, it'll be probably 10 hours a month, but it might be less if things get quiet.
'cause that was really stressful as well. I felt like if things dropped at all, I was like, argh we need to get some jobs in 'cause we've got people's wages to pay. Whereas before I'd been like, if things got quiet, I thought, woo-hoo. Let's book a holiday. Let's relax and enjoy myself. But it felt like relentless and like I had to keep up this certain level of busyness to pay everybody. And have enough pay myself.
So it was on like once I did all the sums and everything, I was earning about the same, but just with a shit ton more stress.
So I was like, this is fair enough. Like business, the library was like, you're doing so well. And I was like, I'm dying. So it was. Yeah, didn't work.
Steve Folland: You followed their kind of enthusiasm for, and they weren't wrong. there was a, they weren't right.
Katie Chappell: It worked like it. If I hadn't been me, maybe I could still be going and scaling it even further and bigger, bigger, more. But I just, yeah,
Steve Folland: But that's a crucial thing, isn't it? So at least you recognized, but I am me and this is somebody else's business. This isn't necessarily what I want to do.
Katie Chappell: Exactly.
Steve Folland: But, was that hard to shift that away when you had so much, presumably inbound interest, wanting to hire you?
Katie Chappell: It was really hard, and also I felt really bad about disappointing the illustrators that I was not promising jobs do, but I was like, you're on the books, so if a job comes in your area, you can do it. I felt bad, disappointing them.
Felt bad. It felt like a big step back and what am I doing? But then in January, like you say, I still had this inbound, all the inquiries were still coming in, and I was on Instagram and I was like, I've got a job in Edinburgh. Does anybody want it? I'm not, I'm, done. Like I, I'm not doing in person. I'm online only.
And about four people got back to me, and then one person was like. I think this is like a third job that I'd mentioned that week. Thought like you should start a jobs board. Like the people like, why are you getting all these jobs and you're not doing them? And I was like, huh, interesting.
So I set up a jobs board and that was my 2025 experiment. Just taking the jobs that came in that I couldn't do myself because they weren't online or they weren't for a client that I wanted to work for, or they were like, their budget didn't quite match my fees or whatever, put it on the jobs board and set up, it was on Substack.
So you pay monthly to read the posts. And I set up like a Google form if you do it. And then the Google form goes to the client and the, it's up to the client to do what they want with that Google form. And that was, yeah, my big experiment of last year.
Steve Folland: So there's the word experiment there.
Katie Chappell: Yeah.
Steve Folland: How, did that experiment go?
Katie Chappell: So if I, put my like rose tinted glasses on. It was cool. Like people got really interesting jobs from it. I had lots of people being like, this is amazing. Thank you so much. And for the people that pay seven pound a month and got a $13,000 job, amazing.
However, there was also a lot of backlash online mainly, and people saying that it is not ethical to charge people to apply to jobs.
I think it's a lot of people didn't understand that it was for a very, it's very niche illustration and it is my actual inquiries that I'm just sharing. Like people I think thought I was like scraping random jobs and then charging people to apply. I dunno. But anyways, there was a lot of like, how dare you're a gatekeeper. You are a white lady with too much power. Like you are bad. You're doing this. You... yeah.
And it really got to me, to be honest, 'cause I, was like, I'm just trying, I'm just sharing my spare jobs. I'm sorry. And also when I did the maths of it. I worked out that after I'd paid my taxes and everything and had my assistant run it, it was bringing in like 3000 pounds, but at the end of the day, like 300 pounds was left as profit.
And I was like, is it worth all the hassle as people like telling me I'm such a bad person for this amount money? Whereas before I could have just done the jobs and got on with it, done a couple of jobs and made more and then had a peaceful life. But yeah, that was my review in January and I've been working with a, brilliant strategy lady in Edinburgh called Jemma Rathore at Meraki Concept Studio, and she's like a genius. So she's helping me re reframe it and rethink about it and maybe even move it from Substack potentially. But that's all in the works yet. I don't really know what, how it will look next.
Steve Folland: Oh, I'm sorry you got a backlash from it. The Internet's a wild place in that respect.
Katie Chappell: It is.
Steve Folland: And it's always those voices that we hear more or listen to more maybe. But these jobs, this influx of jobs which kind of created a sort of agency at one point and then created a jobs board. Those are coming to you from word of mouth and like SEO on your website, are they?
Katie Chappell: Exactly. Yeah, it's word of mouth. SEO, like returning clients. People have seen my work at an event or their friend of a friend has seen my work at an event. So yeah, basically the inquiries are coming in because I've done a shit ton of marketing for a decade now. Which I think people also didn't understand.
The people that were very angry with me about the jobs board. And the annoying thing as well, like with my brain, I can see their point. I'm like, yeah, fair enough. It's shit. You're right, they should be contacting you. But because of the way marketing works and the internet works, they've seen my website first, so they got in touch with me and that's... Me not having a website isn't gonna help people, so I might as well share the jobs.
And also I feel like if I shared them freely, people wouldn't appreciate it. Way too many people would apply. So the client would be pissed off the people... I dunno. It's just it feels like there's no way to please everybody. And I'm getting over that now. I think.
Steve Folland: Yes. The clients don't want you to share them freely. They're coming to you.
Katie Chappell: Yeah. And actually the clients are really, they're saying, could you recommend somebody? Which is something that I'm trying to figure out, is there a way that I can...?
Steve Folland: But you are still doing live illustration, but you made the decision to do it online only.
Katie Chappell: Yes. So last year I was like online only. This year I'm thinking of trialing doing one job per month. Like or so one in-person job or two online jobs. 'cause I feel like my daughter's a little bit older sometimes she can come with me even if it's a short job and then we can hang out in wherever it is.
And one job a month, honestly feels like a nice amount of admin. I don't need a big team behind the scenes to help me organize everything, and oh my God, I can give them that one-to-one attention. And it also means that I'll have plenty of jobs left to give on the jobs board. If I'm doing one a month.
Yeah.
Steve Folland: So at one point you had. actual, literal, proper grown up staff. You've changed that back to freelance assistants. So do you, who do you have helping you today? One assistant?
Katie Chappell: One assistant now. Yeah. So a nice amount. And I've worked with Emma since 2020, so she's, we go way back, maybe even 2019.
We've spoken on the phone twice in that whole six or seven years because we are just, it's email and WhatsApp all the time. And she's brilliant. She just does stuff without me having to even ask usually, which is amazing.
Steve Folland: Yeah. So what sort of stuff does she take care of for you?
Katie Chappell: She organizes my inbox so I know what I need to reply to and what, it's just for me to go, yes, delete or archive.
And then she'll reply to clients with a quote sometimes, or she'll send them like my booking link for a call. She also does the follow ups, which is something that I knew I had to do, but I could never, I just had too much It was too attached. So if a client gets in touch two weeks later being like, cooee! You emailed me. Do you wanna go ahead like that? For me was totally terrifying. Yeah. That kind of follow up, she does that and that's brilliant because it saves me from even knowing it's happening. So if they reply, being like, no, you're too expensive. I don't even know that happened. I'm just living my life having a good time, not being depressed about somebody's opinion.
Steve Folland: Wow. That sounds helpful.
Katie Chappell: It is helpful. Yeah. And it's, it was one of the first, after a bookkeeper, it was one of the first expenses in my business and was totally worth it. 'cause she's a virtual assistant. So in my inbox, helping me plan stuff, keeping a track of what everything's up to. Yeah. But when I started out with her, it, I was able to pick, I think I did five hours a month. It was the retainer and that's all I needed back then.
And that was brilliant just because it meant that, oh yeah, blog posts, she nudges me for blog content. And if she wasn't doing that, I would never do it. It's too boring, right? I'd be like, I don't need to blog, but she's come on, it's blog time. Send me some stuff so I can put it on your website.
Steve Folland: So they are able to send a quote on your behalf sometimes. So that suggests that you've really got nicely defined packages, I'm imagining.
Katie Chappell: Exactly. And that was also a big game changer because, I dunno if you're anything like me, your client gets in touch, I get oh my God, a client gonna touch, this is so exciting. What's the company like? Looking them up, blah, blah, blah. And then. I would get so in my head about who they were and maybe I'll give them a discount! They seem cool, like I really wanna work for them. I'll give them a discount!
And then, but because, so what... as soon as I set up a pricing menu and told Emma what I generally say to people and she just tells them the price, that was like so good.
And honestly whenever I am naughty and getting my own inbox again, she's you've given them the wrong price. Like whatcha doing? Get out. It's my job. That's not the price. I'm like, okay. I just really wanted to work for them.
So she's good at standardizing things and also making sure everybody gets the good service rather than super excited, enthusiastic Katie one day or overwhelmed Katie that can't reply to emails ghosting you for two weeks. You get like consistent calm, Emma.
Steve Folland: Yes. They're signed as they're from Emma. Are they from?
Katie Chappell: Yes. And actually that's something, she was like, maybe I need my own email address. And I've just been putting it off because people will reply 'thanks Katie'. And it, even though it says from Emma, 'cause people just see my email address and name on there, which is not ideal.
Steve Folland: I love that that's worked out. So yeah. So when it came to pricing have you, I don't know.... have you had any great revelations over the past few years as you've been figuring out what you should charge for what you do?
Katie Chappell: Yeah. Yeah. So this is one of the things when I started out. I, oh, I think it was like I was charging 150 pounds an hour. And for me as a nanny who's getting 10 pounds an hour, 150, I was like, oh my God, I'm a bajillionaire! This is incredible!
And for events work that is really low, I now know, but it took me a while. So I started there and everybody immediately was yes, but you're booked. And that's why I was so busy.
So then to calm things down, I put it up and just kept doing that over the years. So it would be like, this is my price. Everybody's saying yes, and then I upped it and then maybe 20% of people would say no. And now I think I've got it to a point where it's so hard to know because I feel like by the time people get in touch, I've already weeded out the people that don't want to work with me, if that makes sense?
Steve Folland: 'cause the price is on the website ?
Katie Chappell: Because the price is on the website. Yeah, like it's, I don't make it a secret. I feel like for me, when I buy something, I wanna know how much it costs. I don't wanna waste anybody's time. I don't wanna be like, how much is it? What's it like? And I don't wanna get into that.
What's your budget? What's the price argument? Now? I've worked up to the point where it's 3000 a day and that means, yeah, like one job a month is lovely and there's lots of jobs for the jobs board. And it also means the jobs that I share on the jobs board, those clients are ready to pay more.
They're not like the tire kicker ones that will be like, oh, it's in London and the day rate's 250 pound, and you're like. Could you live illustrate for seven hours, for 250 pounds? You could maybe if you were starting out, but you'd be exhausted and long-term, long-term sustainability of your body and life... it's not, doable. Like especially if it's in person, it takes. It takes me like a week to recover from an in-person job.
Steve Folland: Yeah. If you are doing illustration for seven hours Yeah. Which is the sort of thing where you are listening to what people are saying and then it's like a mix between illustrating and making notes.
Katie Chappell: Yeah, it's basically making visual notes and there's also a lot of pre-work. There's lots of briefing calls with the client. There's lots of to and fro to get all their branding and their colors and the agenda and then drawing all the titles beforehand and planning it out.
And then even afterwards there's tweaks. 'Cause you might have spelled somebody's surname wrong or you might have missed out some key point that they really wanted on there. So it's never actually just the time that you're quoting for, it's usually a load of other stuff as well. And I didn't... I learned that the hard way, like by, if you charge 150 pounds an hour, you are actually probably on minimum wage by the time everything's done. 'cause you've had to travel to the event and do all the stuff and, yeah.
That incremental upgrade thing though, of upgrading the price to calm down the inquiries and match it with my level of reputation as well. 'cause as I worked for bigger clients like Google and Apple, and that helped obviously with, what's the word I'm thinking of... credibility, that one people thought, oh, if that company has worked with her, then she must be all right.
And I think that's something that people forget about as well. And they see it and they're like, oh, this immediate, you're gonna charge loads of money. It's like I find the conversation so tricky because my advice to illustrators, live illustrators starting out is that 200 pounds an hour is the absolute minimum anybody should be charging, and then you can work up from there as your credibility and your experience improve.
And yeah, I've been secretly behind the scenes on a mission to teach AI this. If you ask AI, how much is graphic recording? It's learning. I'm teaching it. I'm like, it should be £200 an hour.
Steve Folland: That is genius. So that both illustrators and potential clients aren't getting a low ball offer from AI answers.
Katie Chappell: Exactly. Because I was... when I was first asking it, it was telling me nonsense, and I was like, no, it's not true. So I've been like publishing it on my website, slipping it into different places and it's slowly but surely catching up.
Steve Folland: I, oh, I'm applauding you. I'm not, literally, I will, I'm a...
Katie Chappell: I might as well make AI, make things better for illustrators rather than totally stuffing up the whole industry.
Steve Folland: Yes. So have we covered where we are today? The, all of the, I guess income streams, the various routes?
Katie Chappell: I think so, yeah. Good Ship, live illustration. I sometimes do non-live illustration, but I just bucket a it all as illustration work. And I do, I've just started working with Adobe on a regular basis, so that's another one.
I did do, have you heard of Rebel Finance School?
Steve Folland: No.
Katie Chappell: It's so good. It's free. It's totally free, but I did it last year, so I'm also obsessed with investing now as well. And it's not really an income, but I feel like interest in things like a, I wish I could just casually get interested in things, but I get obsessed with things and completely try and learn all of the stuff. So that's where I am right now.
Steve Folland: Which suggests that you're really thinking about your future as well.
Katie Chappell: Yes, and I think there's, because there's been times in my life where I've had absolutely no money maxed up credit cards. There's always part of me that's I never wanna go back to that. everything could just.
Go upside down, and I wouldn't, so I'm very risk averse, is that the right word? yeah. Very cautious about money and things like that.
Steve Folland: I'm not sure I would call you risk averse because I think you've taken lots of risks.
Katie Chappell: Yeah. Actually. Yeah.
Steve Folland: But you are, thinking of the safety net of, the future for sure.
Katie Chappell: Yes. And especially having a child, I feel very responsible to make sure she's okay. And my husband's okay and yeah, I don't wanna be silly with it. Yeah. Was it like make hay while the sun shines and that I'm like, things are going well now, but I will plan for later. Just 'cause you never know what's gonna happen.
I think 2020 showed us all that. You never know what's gonna happen, so you might as well brace not, brace yourself, just be strategic and organized. Yes.
Steve Folland: How would you think about work life balance, maybe today, but also perhaps in the past?
Katie Chappell: Yeah, that's such a big one because that's what really, when I was scaling as an agency, Illustrated Live having lots of people working for me, work life balance just went out the window.
I was so stressed out. I thought about it... I think about it all the time anyway, but I was thinking about it more than I like to. And the combination of that as well as long nursery hours. I went on holiday and felt like I couldn't switch off at all, and emergencies were happening and I was like on my, oh, it was awful. Like no work life balance.
Whereas now running the jobs board, because I know Emma has uploaded, she does that, she uploads jobs as well. I've got like a decision tree, so she picks if it's a jobs board job or a Katie job, and she puts it on so I could actually now go away and enjoy myself, and the world wouldn't fall apart.
There wouldn't be any emergencies that couldn't wait a week. Because it's drawing pictures. And I was like, it's not actually an emergency. Your picture, come on guys, you're really not that important
Steve Folland: That would be a great auto response on an email. It's drawing pictures. Yeah. Not emergency.
Katie Chappell: But yeah, like now I don't, work Fridays. My daughter finishes school at 3.15 and I pick her up most days. She's a half day on a Friday, so Yeah. But I have a very. It's such a short window of time. The school hours,
Steve Folland: Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Katie Chappell: Yeah. It's like you blink and it's 1:00 PM but I feel like that is a really good thing because otherwise left to my own devices without the boundaries of school time, I will just work all day and think about work all night and be researching things.
And I do my own head, to be honest, because I get. like, I said, I can never just be casually interested in something. I've gotta be like completely obsessed with it and have it take over everything. So school is a good buffer and being forced to go to the park or go for a walk or go to birthday parties at the weekend. Oh my god. Birthday parties though. that's actually worse. I'd rather, I don't wanna go to birthday parties. no offense birthday parties, but... Yeah, work life balance. I think having a child forces you to have more balance.
Steve Folland: I, love that phrase you said earlier, marketing is easy, make work, share work. Although I feel like there's probably more to it than that. When...
Katie Chappell: A little bit...
Steve Folland: The SEO of your website, like has obviously done so well. yeah. What would you say has worked well for you in terms of marketing?
Katie Chappell: Definitely. I know you mentioned the word niche early on in this chat, like finding a niche... And I, know the word niche has a lot of ooh, people get really I don't want one. But you can change it to just what problem does your client have that you can solve and make it so easy to be like, plug in, this is the answer. I have it.
Whereas when I was just a generic illustrator drawing anything for anyone, it was so much harder. I made my life so much more difficult because I didn't have a clear, I can help you do this or I will do this for you. Ta Dah!
You don't have to think of it as a niche. I think that's an important thing.
Just knowing... it's like the Venn diagram, isn't it? Like finding people who need the thing and can afford to do, to pay for the thing that one's important. So people need a thing done, they can afford to pay for the thing to be done, and they know you exist. So it's You've got to tell them you exist and how much it costs and what you'll do for them. And then it's okay, cool.
And I think one of the best business lessons I ever had was when I was getting married trying to find a caterer. And I was like, I have no idea how much catering a wedding should cost. Like I have no clue. And I went to a couple of caterers and I was like, I'm getting married, there's 20 people.
And they're like, what's your budget? And I was like, I don't.. . I dunno, I just need to feed people at their wedding. will you help me? And they were like, yeah, but what's your budget? I was like. Just give me like, tell me how much it costs and I will pay you.
There's that, and I feel like a lot of event organizers are like, I've seen this live illustration thing, or whatever. It seems cool. How much is it? And you're telling them how much it is.
If a wedding photographer, like if you get fours at your wedding, it costs thousands of pounds, but you're just like, it's my wedding. I want a good photographer. And you choose somebody whose style you like and you like them because they're gonna be with you all day. It's all that. So you're getting married is a brilliant business lesson.
Steve Folland: Nice. And you also mentioned the 100 day project that you were doing when you were in Thailand. Do you still create for your own, are you regularly posting your own stuff, maybe using side projects as part of that?
Katie Chappell: Not so much, and that's a sad thing I think. Like right now in, in where I am in life, I don't have very much fun side project energy. So I have started knitting again and I feel like that's like creativity comes out somehow. So that's where I'm knitting a lot.
And I just ordered a load of Japanese stationary. 'cause I wanna do, I got like a nice fancy planner with really thin paper and posh pens, but it's not, 'cause I joined a comics book class last year or the year before and to finish seven hours drawing at an event. And I'd be like off to comics class. The draws are picked. Like I was not. Having fun 'cause I've already, it's like a busman's holiday drawing for fun.
Maybe this year when I'm doing one job a month, that will help. 'cause I'll have drawing energy left over. Fingers crossed.
Steve Folland: Katie, it's been so good chatting to you. Make sure you check out what Katie's up to, and also The Good Ship Illustration. There'll be links of course, where I've posted this in the show notes, on the website, in the podcast app itself.
Katie, it's been absolute joy chatting to you. Thank you for taking the time and all the best being freelance!
Katie Chappell: Yeah, thank you.