Will work for chicken - Composer and sound designer Joe Basile

Joe Basile Freelance Podcast.png

Joe’s been making music forever, but his first real-world project came during an internship he took after leaving school. He freelanced on the side after that while waiting tables, and then landed a corporate sales job which he really, really hated.

With help from a friend, Joe found his way back to music and began studying for his masters and picking up freelance work once again.

He had a stint in-house before taking his freelance business full-time, and eventually, when an office in-joke caught on, he rebranded from Joe Basille Music to The Chicken.

He chats to Steve about finding work, building a network, attending events, and diversifying his income.

 

This episode is kindly supported by With Jack!

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TRANSCRIPT OF THE BEING FREELANCE PODCAST WITH COMPOSER AND SOUND DESIGNER JOE BASILE AND STEVE FOLLAND

Steve Folland: Anyway, let's crack on, shall we? And chat to this week's guest and that is freelance composer and sound designer, Joe Basile. Hey Joe.

Joe Basile: Hello. Hello, Steve.

Steve Folland: Okay, as ever. How about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?

Joe Basile: Gosh, I've taken quite a meandering path. I mean, to kind of start way back. I've been making music forever, since I was just a kid. So yeah, I went to school for music. I got my bachelor's degree in commercial and electronic music. Then I did an internship at a place in New York called Antfood Music & Sound Design, seven, eight months. At the time it was a very small company. It was kind of like my first taste into working on real world projects. It's a much different ballgame when you're working on something that has a heavy budget behind it.

Joe Basile: It was a very humbling experience, because I went to a pretty small school. And I felt kind of like a big fish in a small pond. It was beneficial for me to kind of be thrown into that type of environment to see what I had to do and the skill level that was out there.

Steve Folland: So what did you do next, after that eight months or so interning?

Joe Basile: Well, I honestly I kind of took a break from it for probably about three years. I grew up in North Carolina and I moved back to North Carolina. I waited tables for about 10 months, lived at home with my parents, bartended a little bit. I kind of was doing a couple of freelance projects here and there. And so in terms of being an independent freelancer, that's when it kind of started. Even though it was very, very small projects that I was working on, but still work nonetheless. That did pay. Yeah, so I waited tables for a bit. I started kind of climbing the corporate ladder at a architectural hardware distributor, selling doors and frames and locks, and ...

Steve Folland: What made you take that step back? Having been dived deep into the thing that you wanted to do?

Joe Basile: Well, I think there was part of me at the time that really wasn't sure that I really wanted to do it.

Steve Folland: Oh really?

Joe Basile: To be honest. And I think I needed to kind of take that step back. I mean there was some personal things also that I was dealing with at the time and I think I just needed to just reset and just know like, "Is this really what you want to do?" Because I mean, financially it wasn't working out very well at the time. I was living in New York right at the height of the financial crisis, or shortly thereafter I should say. And it was just not a very good time to be trying to make it in the music industry. And so I just kind of, I started cutting, going the safe route, so climbing the corporate ladder at this company.

Joe Basile: I was doing really well. I worked there for about two years and then just one day I just decided I really hated it. I just really, really hated it. And I had a long conversation with a good friend of mine who had recently started a master's program in music, and he was just telling me, he was like, "Man, you just sound like you just need to kind of immerse yourself in music again to get back into it."

Joe Basile: And so that's ultimately what I ended up doing. I went back to school, I got my masters degree and it's kind of funny how that worked out is when I started back in school, the freelance work just kind of blew up. I just started getting a lot of different projects happening. I don't know if that's also where the whole social media age, this was around 2013 or so. It was much more commonplace just to have social media everywhere around that time. That's when I think what's kind of been driving the industry even to this day.

Joe Basile: And so yeah, at that time the freelance work just kind of started blowing up. I just started getting a lot of different projects that I was having to juggle while I was taking classes and things like that, which was a challenge in itself. But yeah. Then after I finished graduate school I taught for one semester at that same school as an adjunct professor part-time. So that actually allowed me to kind of put a little bit more time into doing freelance work while having a steady income of being a part-time teacher.

Joe Basile: And then after that I shifted into ... I got a position as an in house composer at a marketing agency through some connections that I had from where I went to school actually. A bunch of us have all gone through this one agency in Raleigh, North Carolina. Yeah, I started doing that. Still continuing to freelance here and there.

Steve Folland: Wow. Just to pull it slightly.

Joe Basile: Sure.

Steve Folland: When you were getting that freelance work, but when you were climbing corporate ladder and then suddenly increased when you went back to school, where were you getting that work from? How were you putting yourself out there in finding work?

Joe Basile: It's so funny how these things work where, a friend of mine from middle school, he had kind of started doing some creative direction on some smaller projects that I just helped him out on. This was during that time when I was bartending after my internship and there was an animator that he had worked with on those same projects. And that animator ended up asking him, "Hey, do you know of any sound designers or music composers? I've got a little project I'm trying to work on."

Joe Basile: And so that little project ended up turning into a series of several videos and then through that one animator, that's where a lot of this freelance work came from. Just through that one initial connection. And then once I started building a portfolio of that work, I could start actually cold calling and marketing myself to people that I didn't know directly. You know, it's fun that animator would work with other animators. Then they would ask him and then he would refer me. And it's kind of just like that spider web of networking. That's at least how I got my start.

Steve Folland: That's cool. When it came to cold calling, where you literally cold calling, were you emailing, what would you do?

Joe Basile: I did do a little bit of that. Gosh, I mean I still do some of that to this day. It's the type of thing where I think you always have to be able to put yourself out there like that. A lot of the responses I got were, "Okay, we'll put you on our list." And then that list is the trash can sitting next to their desk. Because I mean these people, they just, they get bombarded with people just like me. But I mean some of those cold calls did end up working out, in that it at least made an introduction so that later on if I was able to get a more direct connection I could say like, "Oh yeah, we spoke at this point actually." And then we could have a point to refer back to. But yeah, I mean cold calling, it's not necessarily the most effective way of doing it. But I think that there's value in doing things like that. And to reaching out to people that you just, you don't know.

Steve Folland: So back in your story, you're in-house in a marketing agency and you're the in house composer. What year was that?

Joe Basile: I started there in April of 2015. I was one of three, so there was actually three of us total at that marketing agency.

Steve Folland: Three composers?

Joe Basile: Yes.

Steve Folland: Wow.

Joe Basile: Three in house composers. Yeah. It was pretty remarkable, especially in a place like Raleigh, North Carolina, to have that sort of salaried position, especially three of them at a marketing agency. But it's a very kind of unique setup that they have there. But yeah, I did that for two years and it was challenging to work in an agency as an in house composer. Because the sheer number of projects that you work on is, I mean it was quite a lot. I just kind of wanted to branch out a little bit in my skillset. And so what I ended up doing is I ended up leaving that job and working for one year at a video production company in Durham, which is about 30 minutes from Raleigh.

Joe Basile: I did that for about a year and I worked as a field audio engineer, basically recording interviews. Yeah, just mainly doing live action shoots for corporate video, some narrative work. But yeah, mostly corporate video. I was still doing music composing though and it was the type of thing where I think I always, I still wanted to do that more than I was. And eventually I just kind of had some freelance opportunities come along where I felt confident that I could kind of take the leap into doing it full-time. So after about a year of working at that production company, I just decided let's just try it. The way I kind of, I saw it is I just, I really wanted to put myself out there and just see what could happen. And then that was about 18 months ago.

Steve Folland: Whoa. So at that point when you had those bits of work come in, was that still coming via connections that you've made then?

Joe Basile: It was kind of a mix. It was a mix of connections that I had made at both that agency with some people that had worked there that had left and started their own companies. It was through the connections that I had had since I started freelancing at the very beginning. Those clients, I still do work with them to this day. I mean 10 years later.

Joe Basile: One of the things that I definitely told myself when I started freelancing full-time is diversify as much as possible in terms of the types of work, the clients you're working with, and then kind of figure out where within all of those projects and marketing genres, you can almost think of them, where I kind of fit in the best. And lately it's been mostly in animation. That seems to be kind of the big driving force behind what I've been able to do and the kind of business that I've been able to run is been large in part because of the success of the animation industry. Because the cost is lower to produce an animation where you have one person, maybe a small team of people working on an animation.

Joe Basile: Because that cost is lower it opens up the budget to do things like original music or sound design. And to be honest, I think original music and sound design can really shine with animation, because there are things that you can do with video effects and motion graphics that you just can't really accomplish as easily in live action shoots. And so I think that that has been where I've been able to kind of capitalize on that growth in the animation industry.

Steve Folland: So you have a number of different clients that you're working with at any point?

Joe Basile: Yes.

Steve Folland: How do you manage your workload? What do you do if loads of them come along at once?

Joe Basile: That's always a tricky thing when you're an independent freelancer. One thing that I find, first of all to really just try to mitigate those types of situations as much as possible upfront. And what I mean by that is is, if a client reaches out to me about a project and they say, "Oh, we think this might be happening this time." And I'll mark that down in the calendar and then I pretty consistently try to follow up on projects. If nothing else, just to know like, "Okay, what's my schedule really looking like? And okay, this week looks like this is going to be pretty crazy. Do I need to," occasionally I will reach out to people and ask for backup on projects if I think that I'm going to be really swamped and I just ... I don't want to drop the ball on anything.

Joe Basile: I mean I'll ask people, "Can you help out with sound design or doing a mix on this?" Things like that. So I do have kind of a few people that I know of that I can tap and say, "Hey, this week is going to be pretty crazy. Do you think that you could help out with this?" And get out in front of that ahead of time. That said, there is always kind of the fire drill scenario where you get an email at 3:30 in the afternoon saying, "Hey, we need this today." And then, I mean, to be honest, I really just set expectations with the client on what's possible and then try my best to not really let the quality of work drop based on a timeline. Really just kind of adjust the scope of what needs to happen within the timeline, if that kind of makes sense.

Steve Folland: Yeah. So it's more about what can effectively be delivered or perhaps how much it might cost if it's quick?

Joe Basile: Right, exactly. Yeah. I mean always forecasting, trying to figure out, okay, this week looks like it's going to be pretty crazy. Okay, this week looks a little lighter. So maybe that's going to be like a biz dev week and then like kind of just, and then during weeks like that I can be a little more responsive to last minute requests and things like that.

Joe Basile: I mean I will say, one of the benefits of working at that marketing agency for two years was we did a lot of projects that were on very tight timelines. And so I think working in that environment allowed me to really hone my skills technically so that ... I mean the technical side of it just becomes second nature. And so I can really just know exactly what I need to do, how I need to do it to get things out on a tight timeline. So I will say I think that that was one skill that I really, really learned when I was at that agency.

Steve Folland: Yeah. And you mentioned the pressure that you notice when you first interned. So you've become, it sounds like you're doing well at dealing with that potential overwhelming amount of work.

Joe Basile: Yeah, I mean, I tend to do pretty well under pressure. It's the type of thing where, especially for broadcast pieces where there's an actual like this has to air on this date, or event pieces. That's another thing that I've done quite a bit of where, okay, here's the deadline. The event is happening. They've rented the space, they need this video to show there. And so it's the type of thing where you just learn how to kind of manage yourself and project manage and set milestones and set expectations with the client. It's, yeah, I mean it's ... Dealing with that pressure is, yeah, it's definitely a skill within itself.

Steve Folland: So it's been 18 months. Tell me, where does "The Chicken" fit into all of this?

Joe Basile: Where does The Chicken fit? Okay. All right. So I was freelancing under my name Joe Basile Music for a long time, which was fine, except I always liked the idea of having a brand or an identity or something like that. And so I decided to kind of come up with a name for a business or a studio. And when I was working at that marketing agency, it was a very unique situation where we had one room and that was the room that I and the other two composers worked in.

Joe Basile: But we also, in that room were animators, video editors, directors. I mean just a lot of different skillsets, all in one 30 foot by 30 foot room. We used to just joke around a lot, and it was to the point where, I mean, those are some of my best friends to this day. And it was to the point where for some reason I just started calling everyone chicken. I don't know why. And to the point where, I remember at one point there was an art director there. He came up to me and he said, "Hey Joe, do you think you could have this music for me by 4:30 today? And I was like, "Yeah, only if you bring me some chicken first." Kind of sarcastic, but just, I mean, just kidding around. And sure enough, 30 minutes later there was Popeyes chicken sitting right on my desk.

Joe Basile: And I mean it was, it just kind of became this joke. And I remember my last day there, one of the animators brought me a rotisserie chicken. I have a mask that they gave me as a gift on my last day there. It was just kind of this joke and I remember talking to a friend of mine trying to come up with business names and I was like, "Well what if it was called just something silly like the chicken?" And he was like, "Dude, that's awesome. You should do that." And then sure enough the chicken.net was available. So I bought it immediately. And yeah, that's kind of just how it went.

Steve Folland: And so is The Chicken different to Joe Basile Music?

Joe Basile: Not really. Not at least at this point, I guess one of the benefits of having it as The Chicken as opposed to Joe Basile Music is that it does kind of provide a little bit more opportunity. If I either wanted to hire someone at some point or if I work with other people, it can be under this umbrella of the chicken and then I could credit people individually after that. But I think there's something beneficial to having kind of two sides to work. The chicken is me. But it can also ... I know, I never get quite used to saying that, but it's also kind of like this brand of music and sound design that I'm trying to push also.

Steve Folland: So like a certain sound?

Joe Basile: Sure. Yeah. I mean I think that I've started developing kind of like my own aesthetic, especially since I started freelancing full-time. That yeah, that I really can lean into.

Steve Folland: Hmm. And do you do, because I'm aware mainly because I make videos, but just as with, I know you could go and buy a web template or a video template or whatever, you can go and buy stock music just to say you can get stock footage. And clearly you, by creating bespoke music offer a higher level product. But I'm wondering have you gone down that route of creating off the shelf products of music where people can come along and buy as well?

Joe Basile: Yes. So short answer to that is yes. It's one thing that is just kind of the reality of the industry is where not every project is going to be able to have original music. Nor in my opinion, should every single project have original music. There's some projects where it's just not quite as needed. People might come after me with pitchforks for saying something like that. But I think that ... Or maybe a better way of putting it is there are certain projects where original music will bring much higher value than others.

Joe Basile: And so I think being able to have a library of music that people can license is very, very effective. And that's one thing that I've really tried to push, especially since I first started freelancing full-time, is creating a small library of music that I own and that I can license out or customize for people.

Joe Basile: I mean sometimes it's the type of thing where someone, they like this track but they'd rather have this type of instrument than this. They want a violin rather than a glockenspiel or something like that. And so I think it's really beneficial and where I think the value that I can add where it's not just, okay, we'll just pull this library track out and throw it in the video where like, there are some websites out there that's exactly what you do. You pay $30 or $40 and you buy a piece of music and then you just put it in the video and that's it.

Joe Basile: Where I try and add value to stock music is working as a consultant with a client saying like, "Okay, here's the options from my library. Here's why I think they would work well, here's what we could possibly do to them to customize them so that they fit more with the video without having to write an entire piece of music from scratch."

Steve Folland: Hmm. And does that come about when a client approaches you, but they don't have the budget and then you go, "Well that's okay." And so instead of dropping your prices, you go, "I've got these ready made ones. What do you think to these?"

Joe Basile: Right, exactly. Exactly. I mean, it's the type of thing where ... I mean, if you can show, "Okay, if you can't afford original music, well here's the next best option is if we really try and tailor this stock music track to what the video is doing." One thing that I think I do enjoy about the type of music that I write is I try and keep things pretty dynamic where there's a lot of opportunities to make some interesting edits in the music and so that it can feel more tailored to the video than maybe something that I might just write with no prompt.

Joe Basile: So I do try and kind of, whenever I write a video for a project, as long as the licensing terms are such, I will keep the rights to that music to license it out later on. So that's kind of how I handle that.

Steve Folland: And do you sell these pieces of music via other sites as well, or do you just do it yourself?

Joe Basile: No, I just do it myself. I had looked into doing that at one point, but a lot of these sites, they take a significant chunk of what is already a very low fee that they charge. It's not always the case. There are some websites out there that charge a premium price, and I think rightfully so. But there are a lot of websites out there where they'll say, "Okay, if you let us have exclusive rights to license this track, we will give you 35%. If you give us nonexclusive rights to license this track, we'll give 20%."

Joe Basile: I mean, it can be very, very low. And in my opinion, I mean, yes they are providing the conduit for selling the music and licensing it out. I just, it never made financial sense to me. I suppose that if you get the number one track on one of these stock music websites, then maybe you can get quite a bit of money from that. But yeah, I kind of want to set my own music apart from that type of library.

Steve Folland: Yeah. No, I like that. I like the fact that you, instead of turning people away who are coming to you, you stick them with that relationship, that you're just offering them different possibilities, faced with the reality of real budgets in the world.

Joe Basile: Right? Yeah. I mean, I also really try ... I mean it's a type of thing where sometimes if the budget is so low, I'll tell them like, "Hey, I can search some websites for you for something that I think would work okay." But I'll always throw in some of my own library tracks as well and say like, "If you can just up it a little bit, we can use this." So yeah, every project is different in how I need to kind of approach that sort of scoping.

Steve Folland: Yeah. And how about, how are you ... Are you working from home, or?

Joe Basile: So currently yes. I do have a studio set up in our house, which is always a challenge and a benefit in a lot of ways. I mean, anyone who works from home will tell you all the benefits that there are of working from home. Moving into a third party location I think would be really, really great. It's something that I definitely would like to do. It's a goal of mine, but it just ... At the same time it has to make financial sense. The setup that I have right now is honestly pretty great as far as home studios can go.

Steve Folland: How about the social part of your day? By working from home, do you-

Joe Basile: Oh yeah.

Steve Folland: ... get to see anyone, or?

Joe Basile: That's definitely one of the cons to working from home. I think working in audio, I mean you probably know this as well. When you work in sound, it is by nature an isolating type of work. And it's just by the sheer nature of the craft where, if I'm a graphic designer, I can go work at a coworking space, put my earbuds in, listen to music, work on my graphic design and someone else is doing the same exact thing next to me. Someone's doing the same thing next to them. Across from them is a web designer. Someone's doing project management, all of these things you can do with other people around you and not bother them.

Joe Basile: But with music and sound, we're kind of like the black sheep, where it's like, "We got to just cast out a little bit because we just make noise." It's just the sheer reality of this, we just make noise. And because of that we have to kind of isolate ourselves. And so that's kind of ... Yeah, in terms of the social aspect of it, that's something I've always been accustomed to is working alone in a quiet room. But working from home. Yeah, that is definitely a challenge. I'm on Slack a lot with several different animators and music composers and sound designers. Because we're all kind of like doing the same thing.

Joe Basile: But I have thought about trying to get a coworking space or some kind of office space for that very reason. Just to have a place that I could go and work and be around other people, go to a lot of coffee shops. I try and meet with clients pretty regularly to just get out there. I have a wonderful wife that I love talking to and ... But she works as well, so.

Steve Folland: Is she out of the house during the day?

Joe Basile: Yes, she is. She is.

Steve Folland: She comes back and you're like a puppy at the door like.

Joe Basile: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, she's actually ... She's a veterinarian, so she works pretty odd hours and has a pretty demanding schedule too. So, I've been really, really fortunate to have her. Because the other reality of this industry is, it's just, it's very demanding at times as I'm sure, you know. I mean it's the type of thing where you could be working at nine, 10 o'clock at night to get something out by 8:00 AM the next day. And so that's something that's been very beneficial for us is that we can be very understanding of each other's demanding careers.

Steve Folland: And so do you get to go to any events or go anywhere or have any communities or meetups, or anything like that? Or is it more online?

Joe Basile: Yes. So I do get to go to a fair amount of meetups and events and stuff. I went to a conference in Vancouver recently called Blend, which is an animation conference, which was a lot of fun. It was a whole lot of fun. It was very intense, a lot of socializing. It was kind of like the opposite end of the spectrum from my day-to-day where I'd usually don't do a whole ton of socializing during the day. But when I went out to Blend it was like crazy amount of socialization. But so yeah, I do things like that. I try to travel a bit. I try and connect with the community as well. There's definitely a good community here in Philadelphia. I've tried to kind of get involved with that. We just moved here about little over a month ago. So I'm still trying to meet a lot of people here in the city.

Steve Folland: Funny enough you mentioning that has triggered, because I come across the various people that I speak to in various different ways and I seem to remember, did somebody use you in a talk like a slide?

Joe Basile: So that was Ambrose Yu, he spoke at Blend and he kind of just, I mean kindly enough was like, "Hey, here's some other people that do what I do." Ambrose is, by the way, he's a really, really excellent music composer and sound designer. And he just listed off like a bunch of people.

Steve Folland: So I think I must have seen you on there, or rather I remember seeing The Chicken, which goes to show it works, because I went, "Huh, who the hell is The Chicken?"

Joe Basile: Yeah.

Steve Folland: And then followed your trail to find you.

Joe Basile: That's great. Yeah. I mean I was actually wondering, I was going to ask you how you came across me.

Steve Folland: Yeah, it goes to show, it was probably, I don't know, in somebody's Instagram stories or in a tweet or something like that. And they'd take a photo of the screen and I just saw the screen and saw your name. I'm sure that's how it happened. That's really generous as well. He's up there as the sound design type person speaking to a load of motion designers and instead of keeping all that attention to himself, but shares it out.

Joe Basile: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean it's the type of thing where I think the motion design community has influenced the music and sound design community in that way where there's just, there's a lot of work out there right now. And so it used to be where like, I feel like everyone was kind of like, "Oh give me, give me, give me this is my work." It's become much more collaborative because of the sheer amount and volume of work that's happening in the industry right now.

Joe Basile: People are working together much more and I think that's why you're seeing a very big push in the creative output of animators, music composers. I mean, the sheer, I mean just everyone's pushing the envelope these days. People are just much more willing to just talk to each other openly about work and about the business and about what they're doing. And yeah, just, I think it's really, really great.

Steve Folland: Yeah, it's nice. How have you found the business side of things?

Joe Basile: You mean in terms of the stuff that's not making music and sound?

Steve Folland: Yeah, yeah. Beyond the creativity, the actual business bit.

Joe Basile: You know, it's the type of thing where you hear it all the time from people that run their own businesses that, "Oh, most of what you do is not even the work." And it's absolutely true. I mean it's one of those things where there are times I kind of think, "Do I want to go back to just working a day job?" Because we had a ... The places I've worked before, we had an accounting department and project managers and account managers and human resources for handling your health insurance.

Joe Basile: Now it's like you do all of that stuff yourself when you run your own business. Biz development, that's a huge thing that I try and do. I mean at least a few times a week. And so it's the type of thing where I think I've started kind of branching out into trying to get software tools that help with that, which has been very, very effective. I couldn't promote that type of thing enough. Streamlining those tasks like accounting and contracts and invoicing, that type of thing. Streamlining that as much as possible is super important. At least it has been to me lately, because then you can focus more time on making the work.

Steve Folland: Now if you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance, what would that be?

Joe Basile: Take every opportunity to grow creatively. That's what I would say. I mean I heard someone say this at a talk that was actually at Blend recently. They said this and it really resonated with me was a guy named, Handel Eugene, a really, really great animator that gave a great talk. He definitely made a good point in that every opportunity, whether it's a "nonsense" project that won't ever see the light of day in your portfolio. Or if it's like a personal project that's really important to you. Take every opportunity to grow creatively. If I were to tell my much younger self, like high school younger self, I would tell myself to practice more.

Joe Basile: No, there's a lot of benefits to being able to play your instrument well. I mean, that's one thing that I think I'm very thankful for is that when I was in college, I really practiced quite a bit on my instrument. And it sounds very cliche to say, "Oh well, practice makes perfect." But it's true. I practice my instruments a whole lot and I'm still far from perfect, but it definitely helped me to kind of hone certain fundamental skills that I use every single time I work.

Steve Folland: Joe, it's been so good chatting to you. All the best being freelance.

Joe Basile: Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much Steve.

ComposerSteve FollandComment