Creative Block - Illustrator Emma Block

When a 16 year old Emma started sharing her artwork on her blog, she had no idea how quickly she'd turn from teenager to freelancer and ultimately from freelancer into 'influencer'!

Hear the way she's diversified her income, copes with an RSI and shares tips on social marketing (including great success with Instagram Stories).

More from Emma

Emma on Twitter

Emma on Instagram

Emma's site

Emma's shop

Emma on Pinterest

Who the hell is Steve Folland?

Steve's a freelancer helping businesses use and make video & audio content in much better ways. Find out more at, track him down on Twitter @sfolland or lay a trail of cake and he'll eventually catch you up.

Transcript of Being Freelance podcast interview with Illustrator Emma Block

Steve Folland: 02:21 So as ever, how about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?

Emma Block: Well, my very first freelance job was probably when I was about 17. I'd set my blog up when I was 16 and then I got my first freelance illustration job with a greetings card company when I was 17.

Steve Folland: Wow.

Emma Block: Yeah. And I set up my Etsy shop when I was 17. So, with the Etsy shop I couldn't even have my own PayPal account because I wasn't 18 yet. My Dad had to do it all and sign contracts for me. So yeah, it's all just kind of grown out of my blog really. I started my blog when I was 16 way back in 2006, so people hadn't really heard of blogs back then, but I was just sort of sharing what I was doing, sharing my drawings whilst I was in sixth form and I got some business cards from Moo and shared them on my blog and they saw them and they got in touch about licensing some designs, which they probably still have on their website, which are terrible, about 10 years old. And I just kind of gradually snowballed from there. I just kind of picked up little bits of work.

Steve Folland: 03:33 So your very first freelance gig came because somebody had seen your blog and contacted you, so you didn't have on your blog for example, you know, you can pay me to do this. Why not work with me?

Emma Block: No, it took a long time, I think to call myself a freelance illustrator because at that point I wouldn't have even said I was an illustration student. I was just a, just a student at sixth form. So it is amazing that they, you know, took a chance with a 17 year old and I worked with Woodmansterne as well who were a big greetings card company in the UK. And looking back it's amazing that they were happy to work with someone with no experience and no qualifications, who wasn't even an adult yet.

Steve Folland: 04:15 What an opportunity. So, did you then seize the opportunity, or did you know, continue studying?

Emma Block: 04:22 I just kept on studying really and doing little bits of paid work alongside. It had always been my plan to be an artist or to be an illustrator. I'm quite lucky in that I've always been very sure about what I wanted to do and very sort of focused. So I didn't do A levels. I just studied art and design for two years at sixth form and then didn't do a gap year or foundation. I went straight to university, so I've always been quite focused and yeah, just did little bits and pieces whilst I was studying, so in my third year I got a book job so that was kind of crazy because I was doing my final major project and working on a book at the same time.

Steve Folland: That's awesome. So all of this work for all of that period as you are studying is coming to you via your blog. It's not like you, you went and got an agent or anything like that?

Emma Block: No, that, yeah, that was all through my blog and Twitter and I think just coming up well in Google image searches, I think it takes a while to get good search engine optimisation, but because I'd been blogging and doing this for years and years, I think that's why I was kind of coming up quite well in searches.

Steve Folland: 05:43 Yeah. So, describe to us what your blog was like then and how often were you sharing that?

Emma Block: Probably way more often now because I had more time on my hands and oh really embarrassing - it was more of a bit of everything. It was, I think blogs back then, they were more like online diaries. I, you know, there was no sense that you could make a career from blogging. Now they're more like sort of online magazines a lot of the time, but back then it was much more diary like, so as well as sharing my artwork, they'd just be like stuff about my dog and sixth form and stuff. But there was this thing that I did called Illustration Friday where they'd give you a theme every Friday in a piece of artwork based on that word. So I did that every week and shared that. So I was posting quite regularly. I mean the reason that blogging and social media was so amazing for me at that time was because I'd been quite ill for a long time. So I left school when I was 13 and didn't go back to school till I was 16. So having this kind of social life online with Twitter and blogging and blogging was much more of a community back then. Used to get lots more comments than you do now. So that was really amazing and that sort of really encouraged me having that feedback from people.

Steve Folland: 07:16 How wonderful. How has your blog or your social, I don't want to use the word strategy, but technique however, that like, how has that changed in the past 10 years as to what you share?

Emma Block: It's become a lot more focused and professional. Like I said, when I started my blog I was very young and it was just much more community and sharing and diary like and now I'd probably be a bit less open on social media and a bit more professional. I think maybe a year or two ago, probably a year ago I started taking Instagram a little bit more seriously and just trying to keep a high level of quality of what I was posting. Posting consistently using hashtags, paying attention to what people like and giving them more of the things that they like and less of what they don't like. So no one cares about what I'm eating for lunch, but people love seeing sort of behind the scenes what I'm drawing and painting. And that really worked because my numbers on Instagram have kind of grown ridiculously over the last year. So yeah, it's only recently I've actually implemented a little bit of strategy.

Steve Folland: 08:34 And do you find you can see that work comes your way because of that?

Emma Block: Yeah, definitely. I get sometimes messages directly through Instagram or people will tell me, Oh, I'm so happy to commission you, I've been following you on Instagram for ages. It's always amazing actually when I meet people like publishers at book launch parties and they say, Oh, we all love your blog or something like that. It's really bizarre. But yeah, I definitely get a lot of work through Instagram and Pinterest as well, I think.

Steve Folland: 09:07 That's awesome. And so, through these 10 years has remained work coming to you or would you say that you reach out to find work as well?

Emma Block: I used to do that. I'm in a position now where I don't really have to. There's a few dream clients I would absolutely love to work with. So I would reach out to someone like that. But for the most part, work just comes to me because of the social media and my website and my blog and I've got a lot of repeat clients at this point, but when I graduated five years ago, I would kind of compile lists of art editors and send out emails and things, but I haven't done that in about a year or so.

Steve Folland: 09:53 It's nice that it sounds like it really evolved organically. So what did you find yourself learning as you sort of went along the way - were there stumbling blocks or challenges that you faced? Clearly you could draw, but what about the art side, you've got that nailed, but what about the turning it into your living?

Emma Block: Yeah, the business side has been kind of more of a learning curve because they don't really teach you that in university. And yeah, one of the biggest things I've learned is that not every opportunity is a good opportunity. When you start out, you're so excited to be offered anything and now I can more clearly think, actually that's not such a good deal or actually, that's a little bit of a risky proposition to do, for example, do a load of designs which are going to be no advance royalty only for a brand new company that has no track history of sales, you know, you could do a load of work for them and you'll never actually get paid anything, which was something that happened again when I was probably like 18 or something, but I'm quite glad that I made those kinds of mistakes really early on.

So now I'm more critical about not necessarily getting excited every time I get an email with an opportunity sort of thinking is this actually good for me or not? And the main thing is just learning how to price your work, just charging more. That's been sort of steadily improving. I think it's just when you start out you're so grateful to do anything. So pretty much whatever the budget is, you say, yes, it's taken awhile for me to learn that people don't tend to come to you with their full budget straightaway and that you don't have to say yes and I think because I'm so busy at the moment and I just got the confidence to actually walk away from a job. If the budget's ridiculously tiny, even if it seems like a nice job, I'm quite happy to walk away from things. Which is good because it gives you a little bit more negotiating power.

Steve Folland: Yeah. Easy to negotiate when you genuinely don't care about getting that work. Maybe care is the wrong word, but you don't need it.

Emma Block: Yeah. You know, and there's been jobs that I've been approached with, I've quoted, you know, not even ridiculously high, I've just quoted a proper amount and they haven't got back to me and I'm like, actually I'm quite relieved because that was a crazy amount of work and I wouldn't have done it if it wasn't. There was something I was asked to do - seven windows in a restaurant in London - and that would've been so much work. I did one window display recently, which was lovely, but it's absolutely exhausting. Spending all day in a window painting on the window, to do seven massive windows in a huge restaurant would have been a bit of a killer. So, when they didn't get back to me, it was like, no, that's fine.

Steve Folland: 12:52 Yeah, I saw that actually like the window display. So this is where you actually stand in the window and we'll paint on the window. Did that come from an opportunity that somebody simply asked, by the way, could you do this? Or like did you start thinking, I know, what services can I offer and just paint whatever you want.

Emma Block: Yeah. I've only done windows a couple of couple of times. It's not a big part of my business, but I did my first window years ago for a friend of mine who's a florist and I'd seen other people do it. So I said, can I paint it on your window? It'll probably look a bit like this and we'll take photos. And so that's what got me this job years later that they'd seen the photos of it on somebody's blog. So yeah, I do that quite often. I sort of see, Oh, other people are doing this on social media. I might have a go, see if I can do that as well.

Steve Folland: 13:50 So how have your income streams diversified?

Emma Block: Its definitely diversified a lot from when I first started freelancing. So I think when I graduated I thought I would just be a typical illustrator and I would do books, magazines, greetings cards, packaging, and that was still the bulk of what I do. But I also have an online shop. I teach workshops, I do live illustration at events and I've just started doing more kind of collaborative campaigns with brands. So, I'm getting paid to do an illustration, but I'm also getting paid to post it on all my social media as part of a campaign.

Steve Folland: 14:37 Oh, I see. So, they're coming to you for your audience as well?

Emma Block: Yeah, because I think it's quite unique to have a reasonably sized audience, but also to have this really, well there a few other illustrators who started do this work as well, but I just think it's a nice combination. You've got an audience who obviously loves your work and then you can do something really nice with the brand. I did something lovely with P&O Ferries recently where my followers could submit holiday photos and then seven people won their portrait, like their holiday photo was painted as a watercolour and then I shared them all on social media and that was such a lovely campaign because I loved seeing the photos that were submitted. People who bought pictures were very happy. It was just a really nice campaign. It was a really nice thing to do.

Steve Folland: 15:31 They looked awesome. How do you manage your, your time? Like because obviously you can't outsource what you do. It takes a certain amount of time to do what you do. So yeah. How, how, how do you find managing your workload and your day?

Emma Block: Lots of, to do lists. I've got like a daily to do list and a book which has all of my projects that month and what stage they're at and all of my workshops and events and yeah, just trying to be organised and not booking too many events and workshops in the same week or just trying to be realistic and saying to people, yes, I can do the job, but I can't start for two weeks so I can't start until the end of the month, so just trying to be as organised as possible and not letting it get on top of me.

Steve Folland: 16:23 I was going say has it got on top of you because it can be tempting to take everything on when it comes your way?

Emma Block: Yeah, it can. It's been something that I found really difficult and I've been very, very busy the last year or so. Yeah, it is a challenge. I've got a lot better at saying no to things, but I do find it really difficult. Part of the problem for me is that for the last year and a bit, I've been struggling with repetitive strain injury, obviously caused by overwork in the first place and then overwork is obviously going to make it even worse, so I have to be careful about not taking on too much and being realistic, not pushing myself too much.

Steve Folland: 17:13 Yeah. It's an interesting thing because obviously in workplaces, normal workplaces, if you employ somebody, you know, they come around and they make sure you're sitting right. They even send you on a course to make sure you're looking at your computer right. And it's easy to laugh at those things, but when you're self-employed, you don't have that, and you got to look after yourself and for that matter, you don't get sick pay either. Well, unless maybe you've insured yourself or like income protection or anything like that. Have you or?

Emma Block: No, so no sick pay. I go to a physiotherapist but pay for that myself, which is really helpful. But yeah, it's taken awhile to kind of get sort of better working practices and better posture and better habits and that kind of thing, because you know, nobody told me at university we were all told to work harder, and I wish there was somebody telling me to work less hard and rest a little bit more.

Steve Folland: 18:11 Yeah. And it can be easy to sort of ignore those first signs of it as well. So we were talking about the different income streams and diversifying that. Does that help when it comes to cash flow creating a nice steady stream?

Emma Block: Yeah, definitely, diversifying what I do has really helped with cash flow and a lot of the time with illustration jobs, sometimes they can take a couple of months to actually get paid particularly big things like books. So, it makes sense to do a lot of things like running a shop or running workshops where you’re getting paid almost immediately. So yeah, doing a lot of different things has really helped. I think it'd be very difficult if I was only doing children's books for example, that would be really difficult to have because you'd kind of get all of your money say two times a year and that would be it. So having so many different big and little projects, it just means I'm kind of busy all year round. So, if illustration commissions get quiet or just before Christmas I'll probably be busy with my shop or I'll be busy with events or something like that.

Steve Folland: 20:28 Talking about looking after yourself when it comes to sort of taking holidays, like have you just been tempted to just keep working or do you find time to actually switch off and not do anything?

Emma Block: Yeah, I am a bit of a workaholic, so I do find it difficult to switch off. My husband and I do take nice holidays. He loves travelling and he's the one that always wants to go on holiday or is always trying to get me to go out and have a coffee and take an hour's break. So we spend way too much on coffee every week. He's a freelancer as well. He's a jazz musician and yeah, he always, I'm the sensible one, he always wants to just go somewhere crazy and go for like a month or two months and I'm going, oh well we are freelancers and we don't get holiday pay, let's go for two weeks. So, we went to Mexico this year on our honeymoon and then we just had a little city break in Seville last month, which was nice.

Steve Folland: 21:27 It's interesting, so being married to a freelance musician as well, how do you structure or separate work from, well, life I suppose especially like do you work from home?

Emma Block: Yeah, I work from home. We have slightly unusual work day because my husband always, he works of evenings and weekends. So sometimes I can do stuff in the evenings but quite often I work in the evening because he's out and the house is quiet and again we both work a lot of weekends because I teach workshops and events. So, we try and take Mondays off when we can go do something together, go do an exhibition or something, but I don't have set kind of nine to five days at all.

Steve Folland: 22:11 That's what's great about it.

Emma Block: Yeah, it suits me, especially with this repetitive strain injury because I can kind of work at a very stop-start, kind of work at my own pace.

Steve Folland: 22:24 Nice. Is there anything that you've, I mean you mentioned like getting more into Instagram over the last year. When it comes to marketing yourself, is there anything else that you've experimented with that we haven't touched upon?

Emma Block: I don't think so. I think Instagram's kind of been the big one for me and I started using Instagram stories as well, which I'm really enjoying and people keep saying that I should do a YouTube channel, but I think that's a little bit too much of a time commitment for me. But yeah, I think many people say they don't have time to do social media, but I've kind of, I just really enjoy it. I've always been doing it, so I find it so much more natural and enjoyable just to be posting a picture on Instagram every day and sharing my life rather than emailing a list of 200 art editors or something.

Steve Folland: 23:16 And I suppose it brings you that sense of community that you used to enjoy from your blog years ago.

Emma Block: Yeah, definitely, and the nice thing about living in London is there's so much crossover between people that you meet online and then you meet them at an event or the other way around. You meet someone at an event and then you go, oh, we'll follow each other when we get home. And it's just really natural. Like it would feel way too forward to meet someone at an event and say, can I have your number please? But it feels completely natural to look them up on Instagram and say, hey, it was lovely to meet you. So there is this really big creative community in London and I go to events or book launches or there was a really big craft market in London - the renegade craft fair - and probably about 60 of the people, 60 percent of the people there I knew like everyone who had stalls selling stuff or people that I've met before or people that I follow and so there's a really nice sense of community.

Steve Folland: 24:15 And do you find when you, when you're doing Instagram stories, I mean, do you mainly do photos or do you do videos?

Emma Block: I do videos and I sort of show behind the scenes and I talk to the camera as well - I kind of say, hey Instagram, this is what I'm doing today, and that's just sort of what people respond really well to. It's one of those things if people didn't like it, I probably wouldn't bother doing it. But I've had so many lovely messages from people saying that they check every day to see if I've done any new stories and how someone in Italy says that they watch my Instagram stories to help them practice listening to English. I meet people that I know in real life and they say, Oh, we love listening to your stories. Your voice is so calming and relaxing.

Steve Folland: Which is true - they're going to love this podcast, imagine! More than fifteen seconds of you.

Emma Block: Yeah. It's funny because I've always really hated the sound of my voice, but having done Instagram stories and how so many people, particularly Americans love my accent, so I've kind of come to terms with that. I feel a lot better about it now.

Steve Folland: 25:28 Yeah. Good. Because I do freelance video stuff, I'm always explaining to people about using something like Instagram stories can break down that barrier as in people feel like they're getting to know you and then that can help you when it comes to work further down the line, and I know it's not been going that long, but have you found that?

Emma Block: Yeah, I get so many more Instagram messages that I ever did before, so I do think people do feel, from the Instagram stories that that makes me very approachable and relatable. The other thing is I have noticed that it sort of drives sales to my shops because for weeks I can be showing - I was working on Christmas cards so people saw the initial sort of sketches and then the paintings and they saw how I was editing it and then I sort of showed them when they first arrived. So as soon as they went to my shop, because people had seen the whole process on Instagram stories, they wanted to buy them straight away. So that was really great. When I was at renegade craft fair, actually it was funny because I came around the corner and there was a couple of girls and they went, oh, we knew it was you. We recognise your voice. So that was really funny.

Steve Folland: 26:43 That's really lovely and that's great, isn't it? So the way they're invested in watching your process and then that translates through to, to a sale as well. Really, really good. And yet you're sort of reticent about doing or hesitant about doing a YouTube channel for example.

Emma Block: Yeah. And the other thing that I get asked absolutely all the time because I teach a lot of workshops in London. I'm always being asked, will I do online workshops with sort of video or will I do YouTube tutorials and that kind of thing. I think I'm just so busy. I think I feel like if I did that I'd have to drop something else and it would just be a whole new set of skills to learn - I'd have to learn how to learn to edit and film things properly. And I like Instagram stories because they're so disposable, you know, they're gone in 24 hours and you can't really edit them and they take 10 seconds and yeah. So they feel quite safe and I don't really have to think about the fact that, you know, several thousand people are watching me talking in my studio, like wearing glasses and no makeup. I don't really think about it that much. I don't know, maybe I'll get that next year and decide that it's a good idea, but I'm just sort of dipping my toes with Instagram stories.

Steve Folland: It's a really good point. It's a lot more achievable to do those Instagram stories than it is to do YouTube, which is much more polished I guess.

Emma Block: Yeah, there's such a high standard now. People, you know, do such great videos on YouTube. I think if I did pull it off, it would be a bit rubbish.

Steve Folland: 28:36 It definitely takes longer though, that's for sure. There's no getting around that. Do whatever works for you. So, have, have you been asked about doing online courses or been tempted to do like an online course and like an extension of ...

Emma Block: People ask that all the time because I will post on Instagram sort of saying I've got a new workshop coming up in London and people always comment and say I'm from such and such a country and will you do one online? And again, it's just the time commitment. I think it would be a good idea from an income stream point of view if you've got an online web course that you can run regularly. In a sense it's quite a passive source of income, which is great. It's just the time commitment of building a really, really good online course. So, it's definitely something I would consider for the future, but I'd want to sort of do it properly.

Steve Folland: 29:32 Yeah. It's all that action that it takes to be passive. That's the thing. Now I always this thing where I ask for three facts about yourself - make two true, one a lie, and let me figure out the lie. What have you got for me?

Emma Block: Okay, all the cutlery that I use at home is 17th century, solid silver.

Steve Folland: Okay.

Emma Block: When I was a young child, I did a small amount of modelling and I struggle to remember the alphabet unless I can sing it.

Steve Folland: 30:13 Okay. I don't think you're alone in having to sing the alphabet. I think I still have to do that, but maybe you don't and now I've just made myself look stupid. Modelling, modelling. What kind of things were you modelling as a child?

Emma Block: Just little thing like catalogue work, like kids' clothes when I was young.

Steve Folland: And 17th century silver. So, all of your cutlery at home is 17th century silver.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well there's a bit of IKEA stainless steel that kind of made its way in there through house shares, but otherwise, yes. It's all solid silver.

Steve Folland: 30:47 How fancy. What is it that you love about the 17th century silver?

Emma Block: It's very nice to use. It's got a lovely feel to it. The design that I have is called Old English and it's very sleek and very classic even though it's so old. I'm really fussy about knives and forks and spoons and how they feel in my hand. And I love the idea that someone in like Jane Austen time was using these knives and forks.

Steve Folland: Oh God, that's got to be true. You don't want to put them in the dishwasher. They're just, oh I don't know. If 17th century silver isn't true, it is a magnificent lie because I want that to be true. I don't think you modelled as a child.

Emma Block: You're right.

Steve Folland: Yes!

Emma Block: I would have liked it. That would've been great. But no, that one's not true.

Steve Folland: Oh, so you do sing ABC? Me too.

Yeah, it's really, it's a pain when I'm teaching brush lettering because I've got to write the whole alphabet and I miss letters out and I get letters wrong and I have to - either I've got to keep silent and sing it in my head when I do it or if I talk people through what I'm doing, I kind of, I get really stuck around like S and T and R and I don't know what order they go in. So, I have to ask people what letter comes next.

Steve Folland: Brilliant. Yeah. But yeah, that's the, that's the same for me, I always ended up taking the run up by going L, M, N, O, P just to get myself ...

Emma Block: Yeah, I think it's a quite common for creative people to be mildly dyslexic. That's all I'm saying. With the knives and forks, my grandpa is an antique silver dealer and, in our family, when you're 21, you get a canteen of solid silver cutlery.

Steve Folland: How wonderful as you say - 17th century - just to think of that being used,

Emma Block: It's really mental when you think about it and it's incredible that you know, things that were really made to last. I don't think anyone's going to be using our IKEA stainless steel cutlery in years’ time.

Steve Folland: 33:09 Now, if you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance, what would that be?

Emma Block: I need to have a little bit more confidence in myself to charge a little bit more, say no to the free work and to not work myself into the ground so much. I'm such a workaholic, I probably would anyway. But it'd be great to go back and be able to tell myself that it all works out. It's all fine. You don't need to take every single tiny job because you're scared that it's all going to disappear tomorrow when you won't have any more work. Like it's all going to be fine.

Steve Folland: 33:51 Yeah. That's lovely. You also mentioned in there free work. Did you/ have you/ do you still get, get asked to do stuff for free or on spec or?

Emma Block: I do occasionally, not as much now. I used to get asked a lot more. I got asked recently but from what I can tell on Twitter that person has been emailing every illustrator out there, because lots of people have screenshotted it and shared it to say how terrible it is. And it really annoyed me getting that email because it was quite demeaning because it was, you know, we're looking for up and coming illustrators and we're offering you an exciting opportunity and this is collaboration in the truest sense and you know, and it isn't collaboration because I would have done something for free and then they would have sold it for profit, but you know, they would have mentioned my name. But yeah, I thought that was quite annoying sort of saying, oh, we're looking for up and coming illustrators. And it's like, it sort of makes you think, oh, well I am up and coming. I'm not there yet. I should say yes to this and you shouldn't.

Steve Folland: 34:58 So would you say to somebody who was starting out, for example, who- in quotation marks - "will get the exposure and things" - that they should just hold tight and say, no, do you know what I'm not, I'm not going to do that.

Emma Block: It's a difficult one because I did quite a lot of free work while I was still studying as well as the paid work. And I think if I hadn't done any free work ever, I don't know if things would have taken longer to sort of get the ball rolling. It did provide pieces for my portfolio and it did also provide a bit of a community with, with sort of independent magazines and things that couldn't afford to pay and other illustrators that worked with them who I'm still friends with. I think generally I would say no to free work. I think a little bit of free work while you're a student, but if you're doing something for free, you need to be in control creatively. You don't want to be giving away your copyright. You need to be sort of doing work that you're proud to do, that you want to have in your portfolio.

And there's a massive difference between a big company approaching you for free work who just doesn't want to pay you and say a little independent magazine that you really love that can't afford to pay you. So I would just be quite careful about what you say yes to, but I don't do anything for free now. And on the rare occasions that I have, I've always really regretted it because they always promise exposure and this and that and it never really comes through. I found events and things I've done where I've been paid. I've just been treated so much better and I've picked up more work from, you know, live illustration for example, if I've done an event that I've been paid, I'm just treated better on the night, but I'm also have picked up more jobs and more clients and jobs where I've been convinced oh this is going to be such great exposure, you know, these, you know, various people will be there, and it just hasn't worked out like that at all. So yeah, I'm always disappointed if I ever say yes to something free. So, I've kind of learned my lesson there.

Steve Folland: Awesome, well thanks so much for talking to us. Do checkout and on there of course we'll put links through to Emma's site and her Twitter and Instagram and everything so you can check that out if you haven't before and also check out all the previous guests whatever they are up to. Remember, it's worth listening to their stories and advice and tips and their experiences. It doesn't matter if you know they're an illustrator and you're not, or they're a developer and you're not. It's about the being freelance, so do take a look there and subscribe so that you don't miss an episode as well. But Emma, thank you so much.

Emma Block: You're very welcome.

Steve Folland: It's nice to see in quite a few of your pictures by the way, people listening to podcasts, specifically listening to podcasts, not just music. You've written they're listening to podcasts, so thank you very much. If next time you could say listening to the Being Freelance podcast ... thank you so much and all the best with it. Can't wait to see what you did next, but all the best being freelance!

Emma Block: Thank you very much.

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